The Conservative Christian Case for Supporting Obama
I am an evangelical Christian with a record of voting in line with the Republican Party. This year, however, I am casting my vote for Barack Obama. My support for Obama stands on its own, and has been well documented throughout this blog. But why would an evangelical Christian vote for a Democrat? The answer is as much a reflection of what Obama stands for as it is what the GOP does not.
Last week I received an email from Dr. James Dobson – whose internet ministry I subscribe to – imploring me to “vote my values,” meaning to vote for the candidate whose “pro-life” and pro traditional marriage rhetoric carried Dr. Dobson’s stamp of approval. My immediate thought was: Why should I vote two of my values to the exclusion of all others? In that question lies the problem of the Christian allegiance to the Republican Party.
Since this country’s founding, Christians have politicized Biblical values (we have as much right to do so as any other group that wants this nation to reflect its beliefs) and have helped the U.S. become a beacon of light to the world. The problem, I now realize, with the union of Christians to the GOP, is that we’ve aligned ourselves with a spokes group that sees Christians as nothing more than a voting bloc to pander to with lip service about two passion-evoking issues while ignoring other values that form the core of our beliefs. And as they grip our hearts with life and marriage, the GOP exploits our values to demonize or vilify those with opposing viewpoints.
A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
John 13:34-35
GOP leadership has (perhaps with the willing participation of some Christian leaders) twisted and distilled our values to the point where we are just hot-button sound bites wrapped up in a platform designed to benefit the wealthy and corporate classes. In the process, they have turned uninformed Christians (me among them) into “single-issue voters,” sheepishly towing the Party line while it exploits the name of God and bastardizes our ideals to foment hatred, division and racism and to engender animosity toward Christians by associating us with a platform that is anathema to God’s love.
The party that sprang back to executive power in 2001 (never mind 1994’s broken “contract with America”) did so headed by a self-professed Christian who took no issue with smearing his opponent (John McCain) with the racist lie that he’d illegitimately fathered a mongrel child. George Bush went on to run not only two of the most vile campaigns in recent memory, but also to hold one of the most deceptive and secretive presidencies ever (kudos to Nixon for the one-upmanship).
Today’s GOP wants to strike out further, exploiting Christian principles to preach a message of hate, division, racism and confused class warfare. Whether it be Nancy Pfotenhauer proclaiming that northern Virginia – which is leaning toward Obama – is not the “real Virginia”, Joe McCain (John’s brother) calling blue-leaning Arlington and Alexandria “communist country”, Michele Bachmann calling for a congressional witch hunt to weed out congressmen – like Obama, apparently – who are “anti-American”, Sarah Palin calling small towns in “red states” the home of “real Americans” (not to mention her derision of community organizers), or Robin Hayes claiming that “liberals hate real Americans that work and achieve and believe in God”, the GOP is doing all it can in the waning days of this campaign to create sloganized hatred and division in this country. And with the “Joe the Plumber” tour, John McCain is trying to trick Americans into falling for the perverse lie that somehow working-class, blue collar tradesmen are economically aligned with the top 5% of wage earners and are on the losing end of a mythical “class warfare” that Obama is waging against the working class. And as if that’s not a far enough transgression, the GOP is on a “religious crusade” to paint all Arabs and Muslims as evil terrorists and to “otherize” a respected United States Senator and fellow Christian who is running for President and happens to be African-American, calling him every conceivable demonized and incendiary word other than (and in at least one notable case, including) coming out and saying “he’s black.” And if they cannot win again through fear, division and racism, the GOP is fully prepared to use the subterfuge of voter fraud to conceal their disgusting efforts at voter disenfranchisement (each word links to a separate news article).
GOP strategists have substituted hatemongering for the love of God. And some Christian leaders are complicit in this twisted endeavor. At a recent McCain rally in Davenport, Iowa, Arnold Conrad, former Pastor of the Grace Evangelical Free Church, while leading the invocation, said
I would also pray, Lord, that Your reputation is involved in all that happens between now and November, because there are millions of people around this world praying to their god – whether it’s Hindu, Buddha, Allah – that his opponent wins, for a variety of reasons. And Lord, I pray that You would guard Your own reputation, because they’re going to think that their god is bigger than You, if that happens. So I pray that You will step forward and honor Your own name with all that happens between now and Election Day.
So now God’s reputation is maligned if Obama wins? What of the fact that Obama is a Christian? And what of the Christians who are praying for Obama? Trading on the name of God to castigate your political opponent and recklessly fan the flames of racial, ethnic, religious and socio-economic discord is not of God. And yet, in spite of that, the GOP wants Christians to be co-conspirators in a fundamental breach of Christ’s commandment – the modern equivalent of betraying Christ for 30 pieces of silver – in exchange for the perpetually unfulfilled promise that they will one day overturn Roe v. Wade? Are we actually going to let ourselves fall victim to cookie-cutter religiosity – voting one value while casting all others into the abyss?
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luke 4:18-19
Christians have a ministerial calling to provide aid and comfort to those in our society who are poor and oppressed. These persons also represent our values. And yet the benevolent (and otherwise “small government”) Republican party, which has decided that it’s the Federal government’s duty to protect the life of unborn children, wants to leave those children out in the cold when they need healthcare. For the uber-Christian GOP has determined that though unborn children have a right to life, children who are born to economically depressed parents (who are, by the way, disproportionately represented in the statistics of those seeking abortions) do not have the right to life-sustaining healthcare. John McCain’s policies, while making insurance more – and perhaps cripplingly – expensive for working class Americans, do nothing to ensure that the 47 million uninsured Americans have access to insurance and that all children have a right to insurance.
Likewise, the “compassionate conservatives” who want us to “vote our values” use the power they achieve because of those votes to call for tax policies that place a disproportionate burden on struggling Americans (including the Christians who blindly voted their values) while the wealthiest citizens reap disproportionate tax benefits (talk about engendering class warfare). How can the Republican party care about addressing poverty when it’s tax policies actually create poverty? And how can the Republican Party care about its Christian base when it’s economic and health policies actually harm us and the people we’re called to minister to? The notion that we ought to elect a party that robs us of our health and wealth while blaspheming the name of God just because that party waxes rhetorically about the sanctity of life is beyond insulting.
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2 Timothy 2:15
God wants Christians to not only possess knowledge of the Bible, but also to excel in the knowledge of our trade and to generally possess a dedication to learning that befits a creation endowed with such vast reserves of learning potential. Yet the McCain campaign and GOP operatives are waging a war against intelligence. Whether it’s manipulating the fact that Obama overcame poverty to become a Harvard educated professor who correctly pronounces “Pakistan” to call him an effete elitist, or asking Americans to vote based on slogans (like “Joe Six Pack” or “Joe the Plumber”) that have no relation to reality, Republicans are actually trying to vilify intellectualism (further helping along that class warfare in the process).
When did the party of Teddy Roosevelt decide it was politically expedient to champion mediocrity? With the various “Joe” slogans, Republicans insult blue collar workers everywhere by expecting them to vote for the candidate who’s willing to talk “folksy” and drink a beer with them all the while lying about the fact that “Joes” across America will be worse off under McCain’s tax policies than under Obama’s.
But the poster-child for the Republican assault on intelligence is the once honorable John McCain’s running mate, who, by the way is also an affront to Christians. While professing Christianity, Sarah Palin has shown a penchant for lying whenever she opens her mouth. Whether she’s making up the story that the Alaska legislature fully exonerated her of abuse-of-power charges, proclaiming that Obama is an anti-American terrorist sympathizer, calling Obama a socialist (and now, a communist) who will raise all our taxes and “redistribute wealth”, or reveling in the hatred and rage she incites at her rallies, Palin has proven herself to be a lying, vengeful, slanderous hypocrite who uses Christianity as a resume booster.
She is also an unabashed anti-intellectual. While she’s not insulting working Americans by speaking with a hokey, sixth-grade-reading-level dialect (as though working Americans are too stupid to understand and relate to anything else), Gov. Palin is expecting the American people to swallow the proverbial tripe that she’s qualified potentially for the highest office in the world by virtue of (1) her ability to see Russia, (2) her overseeing of a national guard that might – any day now (whenever Putin “rears his head”) – be called on to defend the U.S. against a highly improbable Russian invasion of Alaska, (3) her recent U.N. coming out party where she, for the first time in her life, met foreign leaders, (4) the fact that her international travel experience is limited to a trip to Kuwait and Germany to visit Alaska National Guard troops – a trip for which she obtained her first passport – last year, and (5) her governance of an oil-rich state. We’re also supposed to ignore the fact that she cannot make it through softball television interviews – for which she had weeks to prepare – without stumbling incoherently through answers to even the simplest of policy questions and getting hopelessly stumped at both the fundamental questions – whether she agrees with the Bush doctrine, and the “gimme” questions – what newspapers she reads.
And after weeks on the campaign trail, she has yet to demonstrate the desire – as Colin Powell put it, the “intellectual curiosity” – to become a student of the serious international and domestic policy issues that she has no comprehension of but seeks to be in charge of. It was appalling that, in her only debate, Gov. Palin excused her inability to answer questions important to the American people by saying “how long have I been at this, like five weeks?” If she cared about anything other than smiling, winking and regurgitating campaign talking points, Palin would have used that “five weeks” to attempt to seriously consider some solutions to our national and international issues.
In that regard, Palin is an insult and a slap in the face to Christians. When stripped of her contrived “qualifications” we are left with a candidate whose only redeeming quality – with regard to the Christian base for whom she was nominated – is that she is a professed Christian who is pro life. And the implication is that Christians are either too stupid, too emotional, or too single-minded to see through her support for our values to the fact that she is woefully unqualified and was selected merely as a pandering tool. Sarah Palin embodies the ultimate betrayal of the trust that we placed in the Republican Party to champion our message.
I am unashamedly pro life and pro traditional marriage. Christ is also, though he would condemn abortion clinic bombers (who, by the way, Ms. Palin, notwithstanding your attempt to dodge the question and pander to the lunatic fringe of your “base”, are terrorists). And though He obviously did not condone the practices of the sinners of His day, Jesus walked among them, rather than separating His followers from them, for to those persons was His ministry.
True, Obama is not pro-life (though he is against gay marriage), but his stance on abortion is conciliatory, rather than divisive: “We may not agree on abortion, but surely we can agree on reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies in this country.” That statement is from his nomination acceptance speech. Obama is thus sincere enough to admit that though he has a differing opinion with fellow Christians on an important issue, he is willing to work together to solve a potentially divisive problem in a way that may remove the impetus for women to seek abortions. It is that desire to unite and seek common ground rather than divide that separates Obama/Biden from McCain/Palin.
I do not have any messianic delusions about Obama, but his career background and political message indicate that he has tapped into Christ’s message, and that he understands that a leader must be an advocate for all of us, not just those in his voting bloc. Contrast Obama’s message in his national introduction speech at the 2004 Democratic Convention with the divisive message of the Republican Party.
…there’s not a liberal America and a conservative America; there’s the United States of America. There’s not a black America and white America and Latino America and Asian America; there’s the United States of America. The pundits…like to slice and dice our country into red states and blue States: red states for Republicans, blue States for Democrats. But I’ve got news for them, too. We worship an awesome God in the blue states, and we don’t like federal agents poking around our libraries in the red states. We coach little league in the blue states and, yes, we’ve got some gay friends in the red states. There are patriots who opposed the war in Iraq, and there are patriots who supported the war in Iraq. We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America. In the end, that’s what this election is about. Do we participate in a politics of cynicism, or do we participate in a politics of hope?
Whether it be his early work as a community organizer and civil rights attorney, his achievement of bipartisan support for ethics and healthcare reform and higher tax credits for low-wage workers while in the Illinois Senate, his involvement with police organizations to enact death penalty reforms and seek an end to racial profiling, or his efforts at improving fiscal transparency (on which he received bipartisan support from John McCain, among others), criminalizing voter intimidation and improving healthcare and education while in the U.S. Senate, Obama has a record of bridging divides, reaching across party lines and working to end the social inequalities that plague the ethnically and economically disadvantaged members of our society. That balanced, unifying leadership is the kind of leadership we need in the White House. We need a leader that restores a sense of hope in a unifying purpose for this country.
[P]art of what has been lost these past eight years can’t just be measured by lost wages or bigger trade deficits. What has also been lost is our sense of common purpose, and that’s what we have to restore…. [T]his, too, is part of America’s promise, the promise of a democracy where we can find the strength and grace to bridge divides and unite in common effort.
Barack Obama, 2008 Democratic Nomination Acceptance Speech
We are a nation of fault lines. The oneness that saw us through the Great Depression and World War II to become the greatest, most powerful and benevolent nation on Earth has been replaced with a fractured society, defined by social discord and plagued by smoldering racial, economic, class and political tensions. We have become a selfish, individualistic, win-at-all-costs society that seems to only recall a unifying purpose in times of national tragedy. While this predicament is not the fault of one political party, no post-Cold War president has yet called Americans to a purpose higher than themselves. And the narrative-stealing “change” agents on the other side have demonstrated that they merely want to help America further dissolve into national obscurity.
As I’ve said before, Barack Obama pledges to change that course, “to bring to our highest office the wisdom, the morals, the ideals and the people necessary to steer the American psyche back on course…to restore in this country a sense of collective purpose and unified destiny.” Having the potential to be more than just a president, Barack is poised to be a transcendent, generational leader both embodying and effectuating reconciliation and restoration. That’s the change we need – a leader who simultaneously calls America back to a time when we were unified in collective pursuit of the “American promise” and forward to a present and future where we can actually attain that promise; a leader committed to genuinely helping the disadvantaged classes in our society achieve equality of opportunity.
These are values Christians can vote for. Obama’s platform calls for providing realistic educational, economic and healthcare opportunities for the poor, for the socially disadvantaged and for the economically distressed workers in our society. Obama’s vision – the veracity of his belief in which is borne out by his record – is for a country where Christians can fellowship with Muslims, where white Americans can break bread with black Americans, where “liberals” can find common ground with “conservatives”. Obama’s pledge is to restore America as a beacon of light for the world. This platform represents a more holistic cross-section of Christian values; for while Christians will not (and should not) agree with every stance taken by another social or religious group, our ministry is to the world and, thus, our political focus should be on electing leaders who not only advocate a broad swath of our values – thereby exhibiting our values to the world – but also effectuate restorative policies that will help those most in need. The time has come to do away with politics that pander to one of our values while employing rhetoric that spawns division and hatred and policies that do the most harm. The time has come for change. This is Barack Obama’s time.
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Excellent article. I actually have a verse that your post made me think of (surprised? :)). Proverbs, 2:1-2;
My son, if you accept my words and store up my commands within you, turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding, [continues]
I cheery picked this little pearl of wisdom because each time I read it, I am reminded that as humans we need to balance reason with empathy, passion with temperance, and work our ways with intelligent compassion and I believe that this small verse makes that abundantly clear for Christians, and it should be clear to all humans.
You use your ears for wisdom, and your heart for understanding, and you will know the fear of the Lord. If you temper your logic with compassion, and your compassion with logic you will find a happy medium in which you can actually help make the world a better place.
I interpret your post, and your support for Obama as the perfect example of using intelligent compassion. No one is perfect, and no one agrees totally 100% and you’ve chosen to support the candidate that has helped to espouse more values that you can relate to than not, rather than relying on hot button issues.
A respectable and sound opinion, as far as I’m concerned.
Well done!
Well said, Rob. As a pro-life Christian woman, I was willing to give Palin a chance, but found myself unable to support her candidacy for many of the reasons you describe. I supported John Edwards at the beginning of the primaries because his focus on alleviating poverty in this country really spoke to my ideals. I am happy to support Barack Obama now, as the contest nears its end. Let’s hope he is able to be a consensus-builder and move the country forward for *all* Americans. (Please be sure to vote!)
We can’t have it all is a reality we have to grapple with but in the end it is still what we hold dearly that counts and that is the greater good….
You conveniently overlook several major Biblical commandants in your post.
You can call yourself a conservative “Christian” all you want to and sit in the pews on the Sabbath before putting your Sunday best back in the closet for the rest of the week. The bottom line is that I wouldn’t want to be you and stand at the pearly gates and explain why I voted for a candidate who was for abortion, among other things. The GOP didn’t politicize religion, God did. If you have a problem with that, take it up with Him.
I loved this line:
“Are we actually going to let ourselves fall victim to cookie-cutter religiosity – voting one value while casting all others into the abyss?”
As long as laws regarding non-profits/separation of church and state are respected, the more dialog we have going, the better. It’s important that we be able to hold very different viewpoints and still speak to one another. Midwest Mom is right - we are all Americans and need to work together on our problems. We’re going to succeed by using the gifts of everyone - not just a few. As a nation, we’ve always been at our best when we work together.
A voice of reason in a sea of insanity. Many of my friends are struggling with the abortion issue and I’ve spoken with them about the very points you’ve made here. How can we ignore neglect, lack of health care, lack of quality education, lack of affordable child care for working parents, and poverty then still say we support life? It’s just supporting birth and not the life that comes after that! Let us first take away the reasons for the majority of abortions and then be in a far better position to oppose it.
Whoa, whoa “D” on Oct. 28. How do you know God politized religion? Are you God’s prophet? Are you speaking for God like Arnold Conrad?
I appreciate this timely, thoughtful, detailed post. We need holistic, complete body of Christ thinking here, not the fragments and parts. Holistic thinking also means care and concern does not end after a baby is saved from abortion, but is involved in that child’s life from birth, offering family support. Questions about that can be illustrated by the ABC show, Babyland which brings up the other aspects of problems that persist with the abortion issue, regardless of politics and judge decisions. Marriage history pre-dates reliable history, but clearly has civil and religious roots that differ widely, as does opinion about the need for civil/religious marriage practice in early history. Let’s come together with a full view, not the pieces and parts. I fully agree that single / dual issue voting is much too limited to guide a informed choice on election date. Many, many other things must weigh into the decision. Thanks again for the post. –D
Thanks for writing this. I’m not an American, but if I were I’d make the same choice.
In addition to John 13:34-35 and Luke 4:18-19, I also like to run things through Romans 2:4:
“Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?”
So how do I respond to sinners? I show them the goodness of God. Because that leads them to repentance, not judgement.
Outlawing things we don’t like isn’t going to stop them. They’re going to just hide them. Instead, let’s let those people walk unashamedly and in openness, so we show them God’s love. Not just in spite of their situation and decisions, but because of them.
I’ll add, based on the comment above, when the day comes that I stand in judgement, I’m going to tell God “I tried to be like your son. I missed some of your commandments because I was too busy showing sinners love, to help them come home to you. Just like you, I met them where they were and cheered them home.”
I know he’ll be okay with that, and that makes me okay with it too.
It’s great that you said all this out loud. My concern, though, is that this viewpoint has always been readily available to any number of people who have chosen instead to take the Republican bait and base their very identity on those two wedge issues to the exclusion of what they claim is their faith. Why? And what can we do about it? The easy answer is something along the lines of: write more blog entries. But somehow I don’t think clinic bombers are reading many blogs like this one — if they read anything at all.
Thank you for that. I often find myself in opposition to many to label themselves Christian because of their knee jerk response to most issues. It is wonderful to see intelligent and reasonable argument coming from a source like this.
The polarization created over the past decade or so between liberal and conservative is not only artificial, it is dangerous. No matter which side of the partisan divide we are on do we not all wish for the same things? Love, happiness, a chance at success, food on the table for our families, freedom from fear?
We have, as a nation, forgotten how to “agree to disagree” and work towards common solutions.
For me to leave a positive comment on a pro-life post is a first. I disagree violently with your position on that issue. However, I agree wholeheartedly with your overall post and am spreading the link far and wide.
My hat is off to you, sir. Beautifully written!
Looks to me like you should be mad at the Church not the GOP. As you can tell from reading the bible, the church is supposed to take care of those who are less fortunate, not the government.
Also if you look at the stats, the church does a much better job of this than the government.
You are trying to get the government to take over where the church is failing. The government is going to do a horrible job at trying to “redistribute the wealth”.
It has not worked in Europe, and it will not work here. Why are we trying to copy floundering systems?
The US is the best place in the planet because of the American Dream. The dream that if you apply yourself, work hard, you will get places, and get paid. If you punish people for being successful you take away some of the drive.
Let the church take care of people and the government protect people. That is what the constitution was founded on.
Rob, you rule and speak truth. As a fellow conservative Christian tired of being pandered too, I’m in strong agreement with a lot of what you say and will be discussing this post on The God Blog.
I do not call myself a Christian, though I believe in the teachings of Jesus, because I also believe in so much more. I have long held that born-again Christians were blinded by faith to the truth of what’s being lived. Your post is refreshing and deeply encouraging that there is a whole world of born-again Christians who actually care about following the heart felt teachings of the Master more than they care about following an unexamined faith. Bless you for this courageous stand on your core values. PS As for D’s post on Oct 28, the very fact that D intentionally choose to not use a real name says it all.
This is a great post. Very well thought out - reasoned.
Thank you for taking the time to post!
James H.
http://serviceafol.blogspot.com/
“Why should I vote two of my values to the exclusion of all others? In that question lies the problem of the Christian allegiance to the Republican Party.”
Exactly.
Excellent, excellent blog. Spot on.
While my opposition to McCain/Palin is due in large part to the “insult and a slap in the face” that is McCain’s VP nomination, I agree that there is a lot more at stake then the abortion issue… I sent a link to your fine article to quite a few extended family and friends.
I don’t consider myself an Evangelical anymore, but this is great work, mate. Thanks for all the effort you put into this write-up.
We won’t need to worry with childcare or education if the unborn baby doesn’t make it that far. Protect all walks of life. Don’t pray for one candidate over the other. Pray that God’s will will be done. Don’t forget to vote.
All I can gather from your article is that you may not have a correct understanding of what the role of government really is. You give alot of big media spin, low on facts, high on opinion. Sir, I can promise you, one man will not change a government or a nation, and you would be naive if you believed otherwise.
I have seen this excerpt in another article refering to Bush “hold one of the most deceptive and secretive presidencies ever.”
Have you ever heard of Bill Clinton? Did his administration make you proud?
I have both Dugg and stumbled this post. The research and writing are both excellent. You said what you meant to say and framed your opinion with great thoughtfulness and respect. I salute you for being impeccable with your use of words and for deeply exploring the issue. I was deeply touched by reading it. I don’t know a single pro-choice person is pro-death. There is so much that can be achieved if fear filled legalists would choose to exhibit compassion, rather than a desire to control the personal private affairs of women. The upcoming months and years point towards a need for increasing cooperation, nor the polarization of the past. Much can be done towards educating citizens to prevent unwanted pregnancies and this is indeed is the underlying issue.
U.S. Abortion Rate continues long-term decline, falling to the lowest level since Roe vs Wade - The abortion rate is now at its lowest level since 1974. The number of abortions declined as well, to a total of 1.2 million in 2005, 25% below the all-time high of 1.6 million abortions in 1990. Source
The United States continues to have one of the highest teen pregnancy rates in the developed world—almost twice as high as those of England, Wales and Canada, and eight times as high as those of the Netherlands and Japan. Every year, roughly nine million new sexually transmitted infections (STIs) occur among teens and young adults in the United States. Compared with rates among teens in Canada and Western Europe, rates of gonorrhea and chlamydia among U.S. teens are extremely high.
According to the US National Vital Statistics Reports, the most recently reported teen pregnancy rate from 2004 is 72.2 per 1000 teens or 7.2 percent.
There is currently no federal program dedicated to supporting comprehensive sex education that teaches young people about both abstinence and contraception.
Federal law establishes a stringent eight-point definition of “abstinence-only education” that requires programs to teach that sexual activity outside of marriage is wrong and harmful—for people of any age. The law also prohibits programs from advocating contraceptive use or discussing contraceptive methods, except to emphasize their failure rates.
Federal guidelines now define sexual activity to include any behavior between two people that may be sexually stimulating, which could be interpreted as including even kissing or hand-holding.
Despite years of evaluation in this area, there is no evidence to date that abstinence-only education delays teen sexual activity. Moreover, recent research shows that abstinence-only strategies may deter contraceptive use among sexually active teens, increasing their risk of unintended pregnancy and STIs. Source PDF
Abstinence students still having sex - Study tracked 2,057 young people in government-funded programs - April. 16, 2007 - Students who participated in sexual abstinence programs were just as likely to have sex a few years later as those who did not, according to a long-awaited study mandated by Congress.
Also, those who attended one of the four abstinence classes reviewed reported having similar numbers of sexual partners as those who did not attend the classes, and they first had sex at about the same age as their control group counterparts — 14.9 years, according to Mathematica Policy Research Inc.
These are the realities and it’s time for Americans to correct the course that was set by the past Administrations.
Thank you for taking a courageous stand and speaking from your heart with compassion and wisdom.
As a son of a minister and having been raised in Christain schools, I’ve been feeling less and less aligned with the Republican party. Now, I understand why. Thanks for putting Christainity in this context.
I’m just wondering where the “conservative” part of your argument is. The abortion part? Harry Reid is about as liberal as they come and he’s pro-life. And even as someone with a law degree, I’m rather skeptical of anyone who employs the term “anti-intellectual” because it is generally nothing but a defense raised by someone who’s been accused of being an arrogant know-it-all.
While I agree that (1) Christian leadership has become WAY too entrenched into party politics and (2) the GOP has lost its way, the idea that Obama is anything remotely “conservative” is nonsense. The “more than just a president” and “beacon of hope” comments are just droplets from your Kool-Aid mustache.
For 40 years, the Republicans have been running in every election with a Bible in one hand and a flag in the other just to get your votes.
If you study history, you’ll realize that they are being 100% cynical. They don’t care about your issues at all, and will do nothing for you the day after the election. They do care about cutting taxes for the upper 20%–which means redistributing wealth UPWARD to those who are already rich. That should be a “moral” issue too. Why isn’t it?
Since the 1970s, the middle class has been hammered in this country. Wages and incomes for 80% of the people have stagnated or declined, while millions of jobs that paid middle class wages have vanished. For the middle class, the golden age was really the 1950s and 1960s, not the years of Reagan, Bush and McCain. That should be a moral issue, as well. Why isn’t it?
Evangelical conservatives will just have to face the fact that they’ve been manipulated for years so that the rich and big business could enjoy a Second Gilded Age in this country. That’s coming to an end now, since the whole system has just crashed. In any case, history shows that we have a reform era every 30-40 years in the U.S. and we’re due for another one.
Michael C. McHugh
Author: THE SECOND GILDED AGE
PS Have you ever wondered whther all these TV pand radio personalities urging you to vote Republican every election are on the take? Are they getting cash under the table for this service? I wonder….
Wow, the feedback! Let’s see, where to begin…
D - It’s a shame that the best argument you can come up with for why I’m speaking out against the Republican Party is that I must not really be a Christian. I’m having trouble understanding which part of my argument you disagreed with, though. Was it the part where I said I was unashamedly pro-life and pro traditional marriage, or was it the part where I said Christ is also? Perhaps it was the part where I said that Christians have every right to politicize their values (a point on which we seem to agree)? Perhaps your true anger is that I refuse to support a campaign run by a Rovian protoge willing to raise hell to get his “heavenly” candidates elected. And for McCain/Palin, “pro life” only means promising to overturn Roe v. Wade, which isn’t very pro-life at all, given that Republicans have been promising that for over twenty years and haven’t done it. In fact, the Supreme Court already has a conservative majority and in 2006 it declined to hear a case - brought by the original plaintiff in Roe - that would have overturned Roe. Roe is stare decisis law now. It’s not going anywhere. And even if it were overturned, abortions won’t stop. Republicans are using Roe as a smokescreen to get Christian votes, but they aren’t talking about meaningful programs that may actually remove the impetus for women to seek abortion. At least Obama’s talking about that. You should be more circumspect in your support for the GOP.
Ken Bosik - Republican rhetoric notwithstanding, McCain’s policies to regressively tax the working and middle class and give bigger tax breaks to the wealthy and corporate class is redistribution of wealth, it’s just flowing upstream. It’s disengenuous for republicans to argue that Obama is talking about redistributing wealth while advocating upstream redistribution tax policies (not to mention that a GOP administration asked for the $700 billion bailout and that the GOP candidate wants to by up $300 billion worth of bad mortgages - talk about redistribution!). And while I disagree with your apparent position that Christ is against governments caring for people, que sara… I will say, though, that you misinterpreted my argument. My point is that it’s pandering for Republicans to say that they’ll make sure the Federal government is concerned about two Christian values (pro life/marriage) while saying Christians are on their own with regard to all others.
Brent Arner, meat FDR and Ronald Reagan. Ronald Reagan and FDR, meet Brent Arner. Now that you’ve been introduced to two generational, transformative Presidents who inspired Americans to care about a cause greater than themselves, perhaps you’ll realize the fallacy of your argument. I am not saying one man can change a nation, but a truly great leader can inspire that nation to help change itself. That’s what FDR did; that’s what Reagan did. I believe Obama is the next great generational leader.
Liza Mcduffy - No, I certainly was not proud of the Clinton administration. It is partially with Clinton in mind that I said Bush held one of the most deceptive and secretive presidencies ever. I did not mention Clinton because I felt Nixon one-upped both Clinton and Reagan with the Watergate affair. I also believe Bush one-upped Clinton.
Scott - I just think you’re not willing to see the “conservative part” of my argument. I said I don’t support abortion, but I’m not willing to be a single-issue voter. If that makes me not conservative in your eyes, so be it. Read my response to “D”, above, for my views on the alleged Republican/Democrat divide on the pro-life issue. And if you think that Palin and the GOP are running a campaign that champions intelligence and aren’t trying to dumbify the electorate, well, I cannot say anymore than I’ve already said. Lastly, I did not make the argument that Obama was “conservative”, nor should I have to. Am I beholden to vote for the quote-conservative candidate just because I am? Should I only vote for the white guy or the black guy? Should I only vote for the POW or the hockey mom? My allegiance is not to the “conservative” party. My only obligation is to vote for the candidate I feel is best equipped to lead this nation in the direction it needs to go in. If that means I’m drinking Obama’s Kool-Aid, then it sure tastes sweet!
After reading some of the contend of this blog above, I only found one that I felt was just unreal. When we talk about the government and what it should do for the many people that it has cause their lives to be a living hell is unbelievable. First, I will start with the many veterans who come home from these insane wars, after fighting for a country that is suppose to be theirs; we find them lying on street corners, sleeping under bridges, committing suicide in many cases. You say the government doesn’t owe them anything? I beg to differ! Take the many homeless people in our nation, yet we can feed other countries, but not our own people. I find that insane.
As far as God is concerned he would not have anything to do with the GOP and it’s none belief in God. God and his followers believe that you should take care of your people. God did not take prayer out of the schools; God did not tell parents that they could not discipline their children. So yes the GOVERNMENT IS RESPONSIBLE. When the government took control of our homes they then took responsibility for the American people. An abortion should not come before the government; it should be a human right to make decisions based on what is best for an individual’s life.
All of this is just jargon and is really not about the issue. We need to look at what is best for the people of our country. You see what George Bush has done the last 8 years. He stole the election and you all followed him, look at where we are today and make your decision. Ask yourself if you want our people to be in soup lines the next 4 years. George Bush when elected he said that he was going to get revenge for his father. That had nothing to do with God, and you have to think about who you are going to vote for. I find that just insane.
John McCain has lied throughout his campaign and everyday he uses racial terms to describe Barack Obama and with that along it should tell you what his plan is once he is in the white house. Sarah Palin has lied everytime she opens her mouth, one day she is a feminist and the next she isn’t. In an interview she said that in Alaska that they spread the wealth around and she forget she said that and attacked Obama for a statement that was taken out of context. Sarah Palin went on Saturday Night Live and mocked our presidency is this what we want from our leaders. Is she the person that you want to take a 3 o’clock call that will determine our faith? These two people waited until the last two weeks to even discuss the issues that are important to the American people and most of it is just a plea for votes.
It is reported that John McCain is not thinking very well and is most of the time incoherent during interviews. From what I understand the GOP now has two camps; one for McCain and another for Palin. This came from her month; when did the Presidential campaigns have two camps. Sarah Palin has her on agenda and it does not include John McCain. The GOP has separated itself from both candidates, that is what I am seeing; if the top advisors are calling Palin a “whack oh” and “dishonest” before the election, what does that say about the McCain and Palin ticket?
God, has spoken and he has chosen Barack Obama to caring out the prophecy and we are not in a position to fight him.
Thank you for sharing. I, too, am a born-again Christian. I’m constantly bombarded with sermons that speak of the injustice of gay marriage and abortion. (I agree with these sermons, I am anit-abortion and anti-gay marriage) However, I NEVER hear sermons about the injustices of supressing the middle and lower classes. (I won’t hold my breath.) I’ve struggled with Obama’s views on pro-choice. But I’ve come to the conclusion that we can disagree on an issue while still working together on its final outcome. When he would lead the way to lowering unwanted pregnancies, and give incentives and tax breaks to those who want to adopt, as well as help our foster car systems — I can’t help but vote for him !! No other candidate Dem or Rep has EVER tried to unify us on this issue !! I find him to be a creative thinker who offers real solutions not just rhetoric to gain votes.
Wow, Rob, it’s funny that you think Christians who vote Republican are being used, while you show yourself to be both stupid and gullible about Barack Obama. For a second, put aside the fact that Obama has really no relevant experience for the job of President. His only activity as Senator was running for President.
Let’s be blunt about abortion. Barack Obama is not “pro-choice” like Clinton, Gore, and Kerry. He is the most pro-abortion legislator in both houses of Congress. He voted AGAINST legislation to protect BORN babies from botched abortion. He was ok with them dying on hospital tables. Think it’s too crazy to be true? It’s not. Look up the Born Alive Infant Protection Act.
Also, Obama’s Democratic Party Platform is the most radically pro-abortion platform in history. “Safe, legal, and rare” is over. The Democrats favor abortion in all stages of pregnancy with no restrictions, an extreme view of only maybe one-fifth of Americans.
http://www.slate.com/id/2197363
Oh, but Obama throws you a bone by saying he wants to reduce unintended pregnancies. Wonderful! That means you should vote for a Muslim/atheist like Obama who voted for BORN BABIES to die on hospital tables. And now you think he will “work together” with pro-lifers? Because he *says* so? You, sir, are not pro-life. You are a fucking idiot.
Thank you for this post. In much more eloquent terms than I have used around the dinner table or water cooler, you have presented an excellent argument for evangelicals like myself to cast our votes (and our prayers) for Senator Obama. You grabbed my attention right away when you mentioned the email you received from Dr. Dobson. I admit that although Focus on the Family has been one of my favorite broadcasts, I turn it off when it is used to try to sway my vote because I refuse as a Christian to only concern myself with “two hot topics of the day”. As important as anti-abortion and anti-gay issues are, I also have other concerns. For example, as a mother of four, one of the Christian principles I stress with my children is integrity, telling the truth. The Bible speaks so much about the truth, and of God’s abhorrence of lies. I mention this because it was a set of well calculated lies that took us into the war in Iraq and has caused the blood shed of thousands of young men and women. Are the Christians out there who support the Republican platform purely on anti-abortion or anti-gay issues suggesting that God sees an abortion as worse than a lie? This is not supported by scripture. So yes, I think Christians have to start looking at the whole picture. Hopefully, your post will help, so I’m forwarding it to friends. Be blessed!
Oh Rick, how perfect, you say I’m “stupid and gullible” and then turn around and call Obama a “Muslim/atheist”!! Nevermind the fact that the two terms are oxymorons. I suppose he’s also a black nationalist Nazi, right. Because in your world totally contradictory phrases make absolute sense. And the last sentence. A personal attack because you can’t come up with a good refutation of my argument?! Priceless. All you’ve done, sir, is regurgitate the crap you heard at Palin’s last rally. You should get your facts straight on Obama’s voting record. Try educating yourself with news sources other than YouTube clips and Sean Hannity episodes.
Your comment will probably do more than my various articles to convince my visitors that Obama is the right candidate. Thanks
Rob, as a fellow Christian, I read this with a lot of interest as I’ve asked myself countless times how a Christian could vote for Obama. While I agree that all other issues shouldn’t be ignored, I now realize that what it all boils down to is how we view is the best way to help people, including the poor. I promise though that while I do take into consideration abortion and marriage, I vote with most of the issues in mind.
What I find funny is that politicians spend almost 2 years bashing each other (and the other party) to the point where we almost can’t help looking at people with opposing views in disgust, and then they call us to unite like we can simply flip a switch and forget everything they’ve been saying.
With an open mind, I’m also not following the logic that the Republican party redistributes wealth upstream. I don’t get how allowing someone to keep more of their money takes that money from the poor to do so. Yes, some large corporations and CEOs are greedy, lying pricks who take advantage of people, but don’t we all know greedy, lying poor people who take advantage of their family and friends as well? Whatever the group is, there are always people from all walks of life - both good and bad. I actually wouldn’t be against higher taxes on the rich (which I’m not rich) if I believed the government would manage the extra money well. Let’s face it though, is there anyone here who trusts the government to spend our money well? Another question is who defined what “fair” is? In most aspects of life, isn’t “fair” treating everyone the same? So why is it “fair” to tax one group three times more than another? Having said that, I realize that those who earn more should help more (per God’s Word that those entrusted with much, much will be asked).
I like the suggestion of Jeffrey Sachs (economist/author - The End of Poverty) that suggests instead of raising the taxes on the rich, keep them the same (or even lower them) but make them designate on their tax returns a charity or cause to give to (or a % to groups that directly help the poor). If the money is going to be taken anyway, I think the rich would rather be forced to give it to a charity than have it disappear in the government’s budget.
The reason I don’t vote democratic is not only because of the abortion and marriage issues (I liked what Obama said in a speech that Democrats need to stop shying away from Christian views and values - paraphrased), but because I think the government should try to control less and not more. If it was responsible with the money it already took from taxes, I honestly believe we wouldn’t have a problem helping the poor in this country (not through more government programs though).
I tend to agree with the viewpoint:“[A] wise and frugal government… shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.” —Thomas Jefferson
I don’t think either party has right, so please don’t think I’m trying to be argumentative. I’m not at all - just found your view interesting and thought I’d comment.
Please read this article and see how the Lord leads. It is not for me to convict but rather the Holy Spirit’s job. It is a well written well thought out article.
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/o/Huntley-Brown-Obama.htm
Outsourcing charity to the government is not Christ-like.
Brock - Thank you so much for your thoughtful comments. I would recommend that you read my article: The Case for Obama: Economic Recovery Through Progressive Taxation as it gives a good analysis of what Obama’s policies will do vs. what McCain’s allegedly (but not actually) small government policies will do. I hope you return and that you consider that article together with this article (to which you originally responded), and perhaps also my article comparing Obama’s and McCain’s healthcare policies.
Thomas - thanks for the article. Unfortunately, Mr. Brown (if he indeed sourced that letter) has fallen victim to the many mischaracterizations and outright lies concerning Obama’s policies/positions/history, and his arguments are therefore fallacious. Further, his argument against Obama basically boils down to a “single issue voter” argument. I am not swayed by the closed-minded single issue argument, as my post demonstrates. I hope that you seek truth instead of the unfortunate mischaracterizations represented in Mr. Brown’s (?) letter. If you want to know more, feel free to email me with specific portions of that letter that you seek clarity on.
Nate - show me where Christ says it’s not of God for governments to care for people. Do you think U.S. child labor laws that prevent companies from exploiting children are against Christ’s teachings? Do you think that minimum-wage and living wage laws that prevent employers from sucking the life out of employees while paying them a pennance are not of God? I think that you may be misguided. I hope you will rethink your position. Or perhaps your definition of charity. Christ would not favor a government willing to leave it’s poor and sick out in the cold, especially when that government is giving 1.7 trillion dollars worth of “charity” to corporations (that’s how much McCain’s 10% cut on the corporate tax rate will cost us, by the way).
Thank you Rob J. for this insightful and spot on commentary. As many others have said, you’ve put together a thorough and comprehensive piece explaining what many thinking “conservative” Christians believe. I have also voted with the Republican party based on the hot button issues (to the exclusion of others).
Gov. Palin’s introduction at the RNC left a bitter taste in my mouth. Her speech was arrogant and mean-spirited. I was saddened at how this loudly trumpeted Christian candidate would introduce herself.
Besides all the great points you make about the issues, about loving one another, there is also much in the Bible on the importance of being teachable, of getting understanding and wisdom. Mr. Obama impresses me as the candidate most teachable. He has shown his desire and ability to seek (wise) counsel. He doesn’t portray himself as a candidate who has all the answers but as one who wants to find better ones. And he certainly appears to be the most humble.
When I compare the McCain/Palin ticket to the Obama/Biden ticket I’m reminded of a parable found in Luke 18, the Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector. The pharisee approaches God saying essentially, “Thank you that I’m so good and not bad like all the evil-doers out there.” The tax collector says ” God be merciful to me. I’m a sinner!” It’s gives me a little chuckle that Obama is being portrayed by the GOP as a “tax collector.” :o) I can’t say for certain that Obama is God’s man for this time but I can say he will be getting this conservative Christian’s vote.
Thank you for your important and much needed Christian perspective on this election.
What comforts me in the midst of this election are the words of Jesus in Matthew 5: “Blessed are you when people persecute you and say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets.” We, as Christians, should expect to be attacked, vilified, and put down because of our faith. But what is sad, and shocking, is the fact that there are professing Christians and even church leaders who are engaging in this sort of smear campaign. God will not be mocked.
Hey Rob,
I think the reason people are balking at your blog entry is that they really believe the Following: (From both “Prophetic” experiences and teaching by leaders that have been spiritually wise in other issues),
- that God will overturn Roe V Wade if they obey him and vote on faith, trusting Him. Voting on faith means not looking at Sarah Palin’s blantant in-excellence for her position, nor McCain’s lack of articulation and explanation of a cohesive vision for the country. It mean’s not judging them by “Human wisdom” nor letting the “Human wisdom” of Obama’s excellence of speech and deep clarity conveyed sway you. It mean’s looking at this from the position that “The battle belongs to the Lord” and that Sarah Palin has God’s favor to accomplish His will , because she is a fervent Christian and believes He will do it.
- They say look at Sarah Palin as an Esther and do not judge her self-righteously. Instead be humble before God and trust in Him. He will turn this country around if we do, and stand up against the two big lies: Abortion and Gay Marriage. They say this is not about how good the leader is - their excellence is not a sign of God working. Rather, it’s “‘That my ways are not your ways’ says the Lord”.
- They say us trying to accomplish things like alleviating poverty, and our choice of a Democrat based on it, is giving into/believing the ideology of humanism. They say that the church is supposed to take care of people socially, not the government, and if we use that as our basis, we are giving into the humanistic lie that “If we just work together, as people we can accomplish anything” and then we elevate ourselves as idols in government, instead of “One Nation Under God”.
- They don’t see unity, excellence or clarity as a sign of God’s workmanship (As the Holy Spirit does bring these things, pointing people to the truth of Jesus). They see the people of this country as duped because they are gravitating towards Obama’s “Deception” and are embracing humanism. They see their political vote as the stand against a lie.
I see the stand against the lie of the ideologies that house Abortion and Gay Marriage must be confronted by us, but not by simply legislating as a majority. I don’t know what it looks like yet. Humanism IS a real trap. This group of Christians HAS shown me that. I say all this acknowledging that as well.
I wanted to clearly outline their perspective on this election that is forming their teaching so that you can respond in an edifying way Rob. Your posts are blessing me. I hope the Holy SPirit reveals more wisdom to you so you can respond to these views by exposing the truth to all of us effectively
I wanted to write all of this to tell all of you what people are saying and how they see it in much of the American, Christian, legitimately “Prophetic”, sound-teaching cohort.
What bothers me the most, and whaat I’m desperately looking for in a Pro-life ticket, is that it appears that no Christian Republican has the disernment to distinguish the WRONG and SINFUL way to espouse information in a deceptive manner.
Thank you SJ for the clarifications. I have wondered how rational people could think Sen. McCain and Gov. Palin would be good for the country.
I would agree, the battle does belong to the Lord, so why are we (they) afraid? Why the fear and fight tactics? Dr. Dobson’s agency sent a 16 page letter of “imagined” terrors that “could” result from an Obama presidency. What gives with that?
I just wish Christians understood the fact that morality cannot be legislated. If the Ten Commandments (the Law) had been intended to solve all of the world’s problems, there would have been no need for Jesus.
As Christians our highest call, our highest priority is to love God with our everything and to love our neighbor as ourselves (Matt 22: 37-40, Mark 12:22-31). It all starts there. All the other commandments hang on those two. As I alluded in a previous comment, it seems to me that the Religious Right’s stance is dangerously similar to the Pharisees of Jesus’ day.
We will only be effective in making a difference in this world when we understand, embrace and live out this principle of love. Everything starts and ends there.
Rob, I refuted your argument, in many ways. I mentioned the Born Alive Infant Protection Act, where Obama DENIED health care to babies BORN from botched abortions. You haven’t let us know why someone so EXTREME on this issue, in your opinion, would be open to other viewpoints on abortion. You do realize the newspapers and almost all networks are openly pulling for Obama, right? That they have covered up and ignored legitimate issues which we should all know about? I called you stupid and gullible because you are. You give us no reason to vote FOR Obama. So I’m gonna give you a chance to answer two questions:
1. How do you as a pro-life “Christian” rationalize voting for a man who is pro-abortion to the extreme and pro-infanticide, regardless of his current statements?
2. What is Barack Obama’s main ACCOMPLISHMENT in life which qualifies him to be President?
Thank you.
P.S. I called Obama a Muslim/atheist because he was raised a Muslim and he is now an atheist. He is not a Christian, though he felt he had to fake it to win public office.
Rick - It is amazing that I wrote an article chastising republicans for character assassinations, personal attacks and hate spewing and you come to the table cursing at me, calling me “stupid and gullible” and making Fox News worthy arguments like “beware people…Obama’s a Muslim atheist” (still laughing at that contradiction and your lame attempt to clear it up with more smears). Hannity/Limbaugh-esque points are made for laughs, not for argument refutation. Plus, you seem to really be echoing McCain with the “woe is me, I’m getting canned in the polls because of the big bad media; not because of the wavering, multiple-incoherent-message campaign I ran” argument.
Anyway, to quickly dispense with your day-old talking points arguments, I’ll say:
(1) Notwithstanding Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin, Bill O’Reilly and Sean Hannity’s arguments to the contrary, Obama is not “pro-infanticide”, in fact even the Republican sponsor of the Born Alive Act refuted that bogus claim. And the Born Alive Act was both redundant of existing Illinois law that already accomplished the protection you’re wrongly claiming Obama voted against, and unconstitutional in that it would have undermined U.S. Supreme Court precedent. Plus, Obama stated that he would have supported the federal Born Alive Infants Protection Act had he been a U.S. Senator at the time - that bill accomplished the same protection as the Illinois proposed law without violating the constitution.
(2) I already listed a sample of Obama’s accmplishments, both prior to political life and in the Illinois and U.S. Senate, that qualify him for the Presidency. And if you want more, perhaps you should go to congressional information websites such as thomas.gov to see the numerous Bills that Obama has sponsored or co-sponsored. I’m stupid, remember, so don’t expect me to do your homework for you
Oh, and didn’t you get the memo? McCain nullified the experience argument when he picked Sarah Barracuda as his running mate. Check your inbox, I’m sure you missed that talking points memo.
Thank you so much for posting this well-written, well researched, and thought out post. I am a definite conservative Christian, but have had issue with voting with the Republican ticket in the past simply because of single-issues that they stand for. It is my belief as well that the only reason then include these issues is to win over the Christian vote. It amazes me how many follow suit. Even at my church, it is amazing how defensive people get if you question the conservative Republican view that seems to go hand in hand.
I am also voting for Obama. I do think Christian principles are important, but to me, at least in this election, They aren’t as much of an issue. As far as gay-marriage goes, neither candidate is planning on making changes to the current law (at least that was my understanding from the Vice Presidential Debate), so that is really no issue this election. For the Abortion issue, I don’t have much faith that Roe vs. Wade would actually end up getting overturned if and when McCain retains office. I think it is a hollow promise (as we have seen before by so many Presidents in the past). Therefore, I have no reason to vote for McSame.
If you don’t mind, I would love to post a link to this blog on my own.
Wow, I thought for a moment that Rob might have been describing Kathy Martin, incumbant candidate for the much maligned Kansas State Board of Education, in describing the “Republican assault on intelligence … who, by the way is also an affront to Christians. While professing Christianity, Sarah Palin [Kathy Martin] has shown a penchant for lying whenever she opens her mouth.”
Today’s Salina Journal, above the fold, reports Martin’s and supporters’ attacks on opponent, Chris Renner, for being (oh, my stars!) openly gay.
Frankly, I don’t care who a candidate has crossed paths with in the past, nor what his/her genetic sex or gender identity is. What I care about is integrity and intelligence. I will happily vote for a person of greater character (gay or straight) over a lying, hatemongering, and self-serving insult to Christians, any day.
I very much appreciate your well-written article. I have been increasingly frustrated with people who truly believe that voting Republican is the “Christian” thing to do. To me, there is more to being a Christian than opposing abortion. While I definitely think abortion is terrible and should be avoided at all costs, I also acknowledge the fact that it is a moral issue that should perhaps be decided by the individuals involved and not the government. Maybe we should work to change the hearts of the mothers dealing with the option of abortion instead of electing a pro-life president who is inadequate in countless other areas.
Anyway, thank you for the encouragement with which this article has provided me. I’m glad to know I am not alone.
I’m just sad reading this article. Mainly because I think it’s anti-love in it’s core. It is not our job to judge folks like Obama, Palin, McCain or Biden. It is not Christ-like to call them names (liars/racist/etc), EVEN if you think of them or know of them to be the things you call them. This article seems to me to be a very bitter and angry article…and that makes me sad. It is not filled with Love. And if it’s not filled with Love, it cannot be of Christ. I’m sharing this in love, not bitter hate or anger, I’m sharing in concern. I’m not saying that I agree or disagree to points of the article, I’m saying that some of the tone seems to go against what Christ preached on love…
“If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.” 1 Corn. 13
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.” Gal 5:22-26
“For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder.” 2 Cor 12:20
Go in love…I’m praying for everyone who reads this, not for elections but for you and your life and your families.
I am not a conservative Christian, as I have always believed that the religious right has resembled the Pharisees of Jesus’ day far more than Jesus Himself. However, as a Christian, I hold many socially conservative views, including believing abortion is murder and that gays do not have a Constitutional right to religious marriage. I have been very impressed to find myself aligned with so many professed conservative Christians on this blog, and I find it invigorating to see that just as there is a call for change in our politics today, it sounds like our fellow Christians are beginning to demand more from their leaders and themselves as well.
It sounds like along with a political renaissance taking place in America, there may be a religious one, and I couldn’t be happier. Now, we have seen what the Republican party does when they get everything they wish for, and they will go the way of the Whigs if they don’t shape up their act. For far too long, they have appealed not to the better angels, but the worse demons, of our nature. Truthfully, Democrats have to watch out also now that they will have all the keys to government, but without a legitimate, reasonable Republican party to check them, it may really be up to us Democrats, new and old, to keep them accountable, as Barack Obama has asked us to do.
I hope that Barack will indeed begin to eliminate the rancor and divisions in our politics, because we so desperately need it. As he said, the size of our problems has far surpassed the ability of our small-minded politics to get things done.
I hope that the sentiment I’ve seen in this blog and in most of these posts is spreading, and that we the people can create a new dialogue and debate in this country. Let’s get rid of this “all liberals are terrorists” or “all conservatives are Nazis” garbage. We need to start over the debate from more realistic, more human terms, and we may find that the old divisions really aren’t so deep after all.
To the 2nd Mandy’s post, I truly appreciate what you’ve said about love, and I agree with you that any criticism or chastising by us as Christians should be motivated by love. However, even Jesus had to overturn money-changing tables because the wickedness He saw there was intolerable, and He wasn’t terribly nice about it. Also, I truly pray that you feel the same way when you see those you may agree with more who may use words you feel are “anti-love”…
Mandy (the second one) - thank you so much for your kind scriptures. You know, reasonable, caring Christians will interpret each other’s tones in different ways. I receive what you said, but I will also offer you this: I admit that I am angry about the tone of this election and about the manipulation of the GOP, but that anger is not sin. For the Bible counsels to “be ye angry, and sin not.” (Ephesians 4:26) Christ knows that anger is a natural emotion - one that he experienced as he walked the Earth. It is quite appropriate to feel anger toward the misappropriation of our values by the GOP. I will make no apologies for that and I have peace in knowing that I have not sinned in that anger.
I will also ask that you read my article again, because I have called no one the names that you suggest. I said Sarah Palin lies, which is true and I said that the GOP was fomenting racism, which is also true, but I never said that Palin was a liar or that the GOP was racist. I was calling out their actions, not calling them names. Christ also called wrongdoers on their actions, as did Paul (1 Cor 5:1-3).
Thank you again for your humble offering.
Mandy (the first one) - I would be honored if you link to my blog. Thank you so much!
When you said that Obama is a Christian you proved that you don’t know what a Christian is. And, since you claim to be a Christian, but don’t know what a Christian is, then nothing else you have to say is worth reading.
To love one’s brother as oneself is to ensure that said brother does not damn himself through aught of his own ignorance or rationalization. While there has been no candidate for any political office in recent memory–at least that I can think of–who has been 100% Christian and 0% politician, there are those whose core values are in greater league with the Bible than others.
While McCain may have foreign policy and economic issues that are decidedly unChristian, the policies he promotes that ARE Christian will allow the Christian lifestyle to continue in perpetuity and effectiveness with greater ease and freedom than any of those policies Obama intends to implement.
While Obama may have some values that sound Christian, nothing in his background is indicative toward such a conclusion. Raised Muslim in islands nowhere near the U.S., he found his “conversion” in a church with a preacher who espoused sentiments such as “Not God BLESS America, God DAMN America, thas’ in da’ Bi-Ble!” Any ignorant man with a pulpit to shout such vile stupidity from certainly shouldn’t be equated with what we call Christian. And any man with the potential to wield power in the United States who has attended a church led by such a blasphemous idiot–attended such a church for a number of years and not noticed such obvious blasphemies–well, that man is either too stupid to run for office, or very deceitful. My guess with Obama would obviously be the latter. Especially since he also supports homosexual rights, Pro-Infant-Murder rights, and anti-capitalism economy.
The Bible says to protect the innocent. Murdering them before birth certainly doesn’t do that. Women and Men are created with equal souls; and sin is sin no matter what your gender. It is no woman’s right to terminate a pregnancy after conception (Conception being defined as the moment a sperm fertilizes an egg). This is, in effect, murder. Murder is the right of no human being, and should not be lauded as such. IF the mother is sick, and may die as a result of the pregnancy, so be it. It is a sad state of affairs; but if there is a greater chance that the child may live, than it is right for the woman to give her life for that of her progeny; regardless of the circumstances of its conception. Does this sound harsh? Yes. It is harsh. And difficult. And in the same situation I very much doubt I could follow suit. But great men have always held that the “Right thing” and the “Easy thing” are very seldom the “same” thing. And so the issue of abortion presents itself.
Likewise, homosexuality is in the same camp; it is always wrong, no matter the circumstances. While it may seem right, and be difficult to reconcile oneself against, that does not make it right. An addiction is an addiction regardless of what that addiction is. Whether one is addicted to smoking cigarettes…or something else; one is still controlled by that addiction, one is still mastered by that addiction, and because of that addiction God cannot work through said person. I’m not saying its easy to give such a thing up; I’m saying it’s the right thing to do.
Obama supports homosexuality.
Obama supports abortion–even partial birth abortion, and is adamantly against giving money to save children which are aborted and survive; thus demanding all physicians nationwide to recant the Hippocratic oath and kill a human being who has the potential to be saved. Why does Obama vie to preserve the institution of partial birth abortion? Because he believes not to vie for such a thing is to possibly limit the “freedoms of pro-choice”. I.E.; “If we allow some attempted murders to be halted, successful murders may be in danger.”
This is also a monetary issue and regards the funding for the life-support of abortion survivors. Is that protection of the weak? Is that loving your fellow man??
Christ associated with tax-collectors and prostitutes. He did not steal money and pay women for sex. Instead, he showed them the right way to live, and told them how to do it. Obama says: “Do what you want as long as you believe it, this is a free country.” That’s the wrong way to look at freedom. Such a maxim should read: “You are free to do as you please; no man can force you or anyone else to believe or do anything you really do not want to do. However, this is the right way to do it, this is the legal way to do it, this is the civilized way to do it, and if you go against these precepts, you are going against the laws through which our country remains viable.”
Obama is also inexperienced. Palin has twice the foreign policy experience that he does. Granted, her experience is with Canadians; who are basically Americans with funny accents, but from where does Obama garner experience in the political field of the foreign?
He does not.
Obama is inexperienced.
Obama lies about his morality in order to garnish more votes across his platter of support.
Obama is in favor of policies which support cash over life.
Finally, Obama is an ardent socialist. His plans to employ the entire workforce of America can only be accomplished if; A, the value of the dollar is depleted to something near the Peso, and B. the dregs of society are basically enslaved. Because there are a majority of people who simply are not fit for a majority of the workforce. And yet Obama favors a redistribution of wealth so that those who have worked for the wealth God has granted them must now give that wealth directly to the poor, and join their ranks. Without industry that is funded through a kind of business autonomy, the United States will come to a stand-still technologically, economically, and realistically.
A pharmaceutical company that will not receive benefits and fiduciary support for its medical advances has absolutely no incentive to make such medical advances. Thus it stagnates.
An automotive dealer who can make no more money producing jalopies than it can producing sports cars is likely to go with the cheaper material.
Etcetera ad infinitum.
You’ve said Sarah Palin lies. If that is true, then it is also very true of Mr. Obama, who has lied about having an uncle that liberated Auschwitz in Germany proceeding world war two. America never liberated Auschwitz, the Russians did; and besides this Obama didn’t have an uncle that fought in the brigade he said. This is not only an unnecessary lie, but a bold-faced one. And if you retort that “Obama simply mis-spoke”, then I will tell you that any political leader who confuses concentration camps and American troop movements obviously doesn’t understand enough about the military or what the military does to become commander in chief!
In any case, the Russians turned half of Germany into a communist state. During Stalin’s rule, tens of millions were murdered to “advance the socialist utopia,” the mantra being that an omelet cannot be made without breaking a few eggs–or maybe fifty million (the approximate number of Soviet murders for the cause of communism between 1918 and 1990)
Communism has never done anything but murder the millions, and it has never worked in any country. At least, not without the murder of all of those who are intelligent and successful enough to have escaped poverty.
Communism, Socialism, Marxism, and all forms of the wicked doctrine stem from subtle exchanges in the political sphere, and minorities influencing the majority and spitting propaganda wherever they can. The Bolshevik revolution consisted of less than twenty thousand individuals; they took over an entire country.
And to you know that Communist thought and philosophy spawned the ACLU?
Furthermore, Barrack Hussein Obama is a strong proponent of the ACLU, an organization begun by communists in the earlier part of the twentieth century, and an organization so adamantly opposed to Christianity that it cannot even tolerate the word “Christ” or “Christmas”. Any politician in affirmation of this group deserves something far worse than literature can relate.
Obama supports the partisan group acorn, who lies about bi-partisanship and steals tax-payer money to fund its revolutionary causes; signing up people that do not exist in order that the vote may be swayed in Obama’s favor.
Obama’s party and policy encourages ignorance, prompting many black Americans to vote for him on the basis of his skin-color; not because he has any political or leadership merit. (Check out the Howerd Stern interview where he sent one of his flunkies to the street and substituted McCain’s policies for Obama’s policies, and checked to see if New Yorkers caught the difference.)
In essence, Obama is the definition of a sheep in wolf’s clothing. He is also ill-equipped to run the country, has lied about his Christianity, has devalued the Bible as the word of God–which automatically disqualifies him from the category labeled “Christian”–and would be a horrible detriment to this country if he were elected. A vote for Barrack Hussein Obama is a vote for stupidity, arrogance, lies, deceit, racism, wickedness, murder, sodomy, and a dozen other adjectives that turn the stomach. If you vote for you, you have voted for these things, and God help you.
An Odor Called Obama:
Great men two hundred years ago
Brought fourth this Godly nation.
They fought for what is true and right
To summon liberation.
A free Market with free speech was
The new configuration—
For which patriot fathers died—
For Our Unified Nation.
But, with time, came Marx; a man possessed
With killing corporation;
And soon Russia fell to riots Birthing
Collectivization.
Tens of millions died in murders wrought
From Commie Motivation;
And indeed those commies changed the world
With their fiat inflation.
Proselytizers of this movement
Then took brief vacation,
And made their way to the USA
Advancing Socialization.
Now, a young man named Obama
Speaks and is soon a sensation;
Saying things that give no answers
Except “Collectivization”.
And the acorns of Missouri
Will Arrest you for confessions
Opposing this Obama
And his theft of Liberation.
So in the year two-thousand eight,
If you find the election
And support Barack Obama
You’ll have an Obama Nation.
Thus, supporting his repression,
You become abomination.
So vote McCain, in 2008
If you love this great nation.
And vote for that Obama if
You want fiat inflation—
For, the “Change you can believe in”
Is the Loss of liberation.
Your article is refreshing to me. Christians have been receiving a bad rap, partly because of the hypocrisy of some in the public light. It’s nice to read a well thought-out, honest opinion.
I’m not a Christian nor am I affiliated with either of the 2 major political parties. At long last, I am voting FOR a candidate this year - Obama - instead of Against someone. Your writing spells out much of why I am voting for Obama, and why I think the Republican party may finally reorganize itself.
Rob, thank you, thank you. There is a good deal of fear being encouraged and manipulated by those wanting power. And finally to read that some Christians have picked up on the way their “wedge issues” are never acted on but disappear after the election, only to reappear right before the next election.
When I was a little girl, I was intensely curious what went on in different churches. As an adult, I have not been so much curious as afraid. It would be reassuring to know that there are more rational evangelicals thinking for themselves the way you do. Thank you kindly, sir.
Kevin C. - Let’s delve into the some of the better pearls of “wisdom” from your response:
First you went immediately into the Rev. Wright diatribe that got played out by Hillary Clinton already. Do a little research and you’ll see that (1) Wright was actually quoting someone else when he made those statements - you may be surprised; and (2) speaking out against America is not “blasphemy”, you need to check yourself on that and stop holding your country up as an idol before God. You might also want to read some of Richard Wright’s literature or maybe Ralph Ellison, so you can get a since of what it feels like to be “otherized” by society.
“Obama says: ‘Do what you want as long as you believe it, this is a free country.’” Can you source that quote for me?
“Obama supports homosexuality. Obama supports abortion–even partial birth abortion, and is adamantly against giving money to save children which are aborted and survive; thus demanding all physicians nationwide to recant the Hippocratic oath and kill a human being who has the potential to be saved.” - All lies. See my response to Rick, above.
“Obama is also inexperienced. Palin has twice the foreign policy experience that he does. Granted, her experience is with Canadians; who are basically Americans with funny accents…” - This comment is too outlandish to even be responded to. This is both a nonstarter and an insult.
“Finally, Obama is an ardent socialist. His plans to employ the entire workforce of America” - You are wrong in at least two ways here, primarily because you don’t know what socialism is. Continue reading for my response to your “anti-capitalism” rant. And while the second way you’re wrong is in your out-of-nowhere assumption that Obama intends to employ “the entire workforce” (by the way, isn’t a “workforce” by definition filled with people who are employed? Laid off people are, by definition, out of the workforce; again, get your facts straight) do you honestly think there is something wrong with a presidential candidate committed to making sure that employment is maximized? That’s suddenly socialism. Suddenly championing employment and the ability to put food on your table is something to be looked down on? So you’re pro-life, but against nourishing that life? I’m sorry, but this argument is nonsensical.
You also used the example that Obama is “anti-capitalism” to “prove” that he’s not Christian. First off, you’re wrong and need to go read John Meynard Keynes’ work before you decide what is and isn’t capitalism. Keynes is a student of Adam Smith and his economic model, which has been employed by the U.S. at least since the New Deal, is right in line with Obama’s plans. Out of Keynsian theory comes such institutions as the FDIC and the Federal Reserve. Obama’s policies are in line with Keynes and backed up by decidedly capitalist economists and businessmen. Plus McCain supported Obama’s tax proposals early this decade, when he voiced opposition to Bush’s tax proposal at the time. Look it up.
Secondly, find me the Bible verse that says capitalism (1) is Biblical and (2) is a prerequisite to being a Christian. I’ll await your response…
From there you go into this endless diatribe - and even a poem - about how Obama is evil-incarnate and plans to bring about communism, socialism, marxism (and apparently sharia) on this country. It’s basically the “blah, blah, blah, he’s a commie Muslim ultra-liberal, yakkidy yack…” argument that comes from the extreme-right (the same fringe that probably supports abortion clinic bombers - after all, “one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter”, right). An aside: you confused me with this verse -”Speaks and is soon a sensation; Saying things that give no answers” - I thought you were talking about Sarah Palin! Anyway, sir, once again you’re wrong and it’s almost shameful that people could actually believe this farcical nonesense. Rather than respond ad nauseum to your baseless lies - picked right out of Jerome Corsi’s head - I’ll direct you to two of the many legitimate sites that refute everything you’ve said: snopes.com and factcheck.org. I’m sure you won’t go, though, because it seems like you don’t want pesky facts getting in the way of your arguments. Oh, and by the way, maybe you should look into Historical Structuralist economic theory and get back to me with whether you think developing and underdeveloped countries think Capitalism is God’s gift to mankind. Again, I support capitalism, but you shouldn’t deify an economic system. That’s just another form of idolatry.
Seek healing, Kevin C.
Gary - first off, you had to get pretty far into my article before you got to the point where I pointed out that Obama is a Christian. Thanks for reading
Secondly, other than the Jerome Corsi/Sarah Palin/Sean Hannity version of “truth”, point me to some facts (you know, documented evidence from respected sources) that prove Obama is not a Christian.
And lastly, let me know where I’ve met you before, so I can know what gives you the right to question my Christianity.
Having responded to those (so far) who disagree with my article, I want to give a heartfelt thanks for all the supportive comments from those of you to whom my article has resonated. Thank you so much for your kind words, your words of advice and prayer, your warnings, and your general interest in what I have to say. I cannot tell you how much I genuinely appreciate everything you’ve said.
Thank you!
Digg It and others. Read the book of Daniel and Revelations. Think about “for one will come that with his words will deceive even the elect.” Then come back to me with your I’m holier than you comments.
Morton and Kevin Christopher Bennett, your posts are well stated and the core of the issue.
Liberation Theology is not a theology I would consider “Christian” in that it’s main concern in not for the Worship and Glory of God and the salvation of lost souls being reconciled to God through the blood of Christ. Liberation Theology is political with a “Christian” coating to propagate hate and an agenda that takes scripture out of context all in the name of God.
I would start with a man’s doctrinal beliefs (since it is implied Obama is a Christian that is a fair place to start) and see what practices he applies them to in in his life. Obama does not display a strong sanctity for human life or marriage. These are foundational for all other concerns we must address.
I agree that God ordains the outcome of who our leaders will be. However, that does not imply that these leaders know God, even Pharaoh was used as a tool by God when the Hebrew people were released from their slavery. The reality is that some people were destroyed (the Egyptians) and some were saved (the Hebrews) and that God ordained the means of an evil ruler for the salvation of a select group. It did not mean that Pharaoh was “on board” with helping out God in his plans. If Obama wins, I will consider it to be a similar situation and look to see God glorified with a “less than desirable” ruler representing our country.
I really enjoyed your well thought out post and reasons, excellent writing.
For further reference, if anyone wants to know how Christianity was politicized, research the behaviors of the early church and contrast them with the role and behaviors of the church after Emperor Constantine’s conversion around 300 AD.
Thanks for your post, Rob.
Wow - Thanks for everyone just caring so much about this. . . I teach college students, at a liberal arts Christian college all day long. . . TRYING to start some of these fires. I love my school, I care deeply about my students, and I yearn for them to be critical consumers of information. It is just refreshing to see some of it in action . . .my first time on the blog - Thanks for your efforts Rob. . . . and all else that contributed
Sherrie and Melissa, thanks for contributing to the “everyone’s the anti-Christ” debate.
And sherrie, since you want to cut-and-paste Scripture to suit your agenda, you should know that the passage you cited could equally apply to Sarah Palin and GWB, so be careful when cherry-picking the Bible to slander someone. I’ll also give you this word of caution, also from Revelation, in case you want to continue using out-of-context Revelation passages to suit your wild fantasies: “And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” (Rev. 22:19)
Melissa, since your take on Obama’s “doctrinal beliefs” is flawed in the Corsian sense, I’ll try to break through your flawed hypothesis with some facts: (1) Obama is not against the “sanctity of marriage”, as you put it. He is against gay marriage and publications dedicated to spreading facts rather than lies, smears and innuendo have already made that clear. Both he and McCain have the same platform in that regard. (2) Obama is not against the “sanctity of life.” Republicans have convinced us that to be pro-life means to be against Rov v. Wade because they don’t have any good ideas for actually stopping abortions. For republicans, the only way to express their “sanctity of life” rhetoric is to keep promising to overturn Roe. Well you know what, they’ve been promising it for over 20 years and haven’t delivered, even though they’ve already managed to get a conservative majority on the Supreme Court. In 2006, the Court refused to hear a case from the original Plaintiff in Roe - who was seeking to have the Court overturn Roe - thus signalling that even the conservative Court that the Republicans have promised all these years isn’t interested in overturning Roe. Why, because Roe is stare decisis law now. It’s preposterous to think that Obama is in favor of killing babies. If you look at his platform, you’ll see that he wants to go around Roe and stop abortion at the root - giving education and remedying the circumstances that lead women to seek abortions. That’s the way to promote the sanctity of life - to get people to stop seeking abortions, not to make abortions illegal so that people will just get abortions in dark alleys again. You need to expand your thinking on this and stop being beholden to the archaic Republican rhetoric.
Hey Rob! I read the other articles you mentioned and while I think we’ll have to respectfully agree to disagree, I’d like to offer a couple of thoughts and get your thoughts on them as well. Hopefully by now, you know I’m not trying to convince you or prove I’m right, but rather get an honest response from another Christian.
As a side note, while reading your articles, I noticed how often you write that Obama or his policies *will* do this or that; almost as if him speaking it will simply make it a reality or accomplish the desired effect. While every candidate spouts off things they want or don’t want to happen, being realistic in what will actually happen helps. Granted, with democrats controlling everything, it’s likely more things will get done, but still.
I work in insurance and many of my days are spent talking to and working with both employers and employees concerning their health insurance. I read an interesting article (which I agree with after working in this industry for 7 years) from Health Insurance Underwriters that the problem is lack of competition in the right areas. In every other aspect of life except health care, competition has brought lower prices. The reason is because health care is competitve in the area of insurance company premiums, fees paid to doctors, lawsuits between hospitals to be the sole provider of services etc. What’s not competitive is the quality of care. The solution comes in making information available so that employees (or everyone really) can research each hospital/doctor’s rate of success, recover, how many come back to a second surgery, etc. Once that happens, then even if someone has to fly from Alabama to Texas for a surgery, the insurance company will pay for it (and it will be worth it) because that hospital will be one of the top in the nation for that procedure and it will be able to charge less because more people are coming to them for that - working similar to free-trade among countries.
In the past 5 years or so that HSAs have been available, many large companies have adopted them as the results have been very positive. People who are responsible for their own health care (and have the incentive to keep money not spent via an HSA, etc) choose more wisely and spend less frivolously.
So while I agree with some of the things Obama has said needs improvement, I don’t think nationalizing healthcare is the right option, as most in my profession agree.
My other thought goes along the lines of Christianity in general. I’m sure you’ve said it, but I think I missed if you mentioned whether you tend to be conservative or not. There are several things that worry me (as a Christian, not a republican) about Obama.
One thing Obama said in the Saddleback debate was that no, he doesn’t believe abortion is right, and yes he does believe marriage is meant to be for a man and woman, but that he wouldn’t let his own personal views interfere with people’s rights (paraphrased). I wonder though, as president, if a man or woman doesn’t allow his own beliefs, moral convictions, and character guide his decision-making, what does he rely on? What does he stand firm on if not that?
My other problem is that while I don’t think Obama is “evil incarnate”, etc., I do believe he’s a different kind of Christian than I am. When talking about homosexuality, he mentioned he would rather look at the verses from the sermon on the mount rather than a couple of obscure verses in Romans. At another time, he was cricital of the sermon on the mount as being “radical” and saying that if our foreign policies followed the bible there, we couldn’t survive.
My point is that I don’t believe you can pick and choose which verses you like and dislike in the bible. Either I believe God’s Word is right all the time and I’m wrong whenever I disagree with it, or I believe any part of it (and therefore all of it) is fallible. If Obama really does believe homosexuality is wrong, why can’t he just say that and back it up with scripture instead of diverting attention to other verses? I guess I just don’t like the man he is, regardlesss of his policies (which I don’t agree with either).
Lastly, and quickly, regardless that people don’t seem to think it matters, I believe you can judge a person by the company he keeps. At some point, Obama did distance himself from his former Reverand which means Wright *did* say some things that were damaging. Also, for the life of me I can’t like his wife. There’s just something about her and past comments I can’t get past (I’m about to be late so I’ll have to find those later). I’ve not done the research on the other relationships Obama supposedly has with questionable people, but I can’t help thinking that there has to be an ounce of truth even if some is embellished.
Once again, this was longer than I meant; sorry about that. I hope you have a blessed day and I look forward to your response when you have the time.
This is good. Thanks.
Rob said
“If you look at his platform, you’ll see that he wants to go around Roe and stop abortion at the root - giving education and remedying the circumstances that lead women to seek abortions. That’s the way to promote the sanctity of life - to get people to stop seeking abortions, not to make abortions illegal so that people will just get abortions in dark alleys again. You need to expand your thinking on this and stop being beholden to the archaic Republican rhetoric.”
Wow. While we are at it, why don’t we legalized murder, sodomy, assault, etc. etc BUT work hard to solve the underlying problem.
And your way of thinking isn’t ignorant, anti-christian, liberal rhetoric? As usually, it’s just the Christians that are ignorant in actually WANTING to preserve life. Call me ignorant then.
Why don’t you just admit you don’t think life starts, legally (you appear to be into the legal side of it), until you are born. Therefore, in your mind, it’s NOT killing babies, right? Just cutting out some tissue, correct? Please clarify your position v. ridiculous statements like ‘Obama’s really ok on abortion bc he’s going to stop unintended births from every happening.’ Wow. Motherhood and apple pie..who wouldn’t support that…but again, Obama does think he’s the Messiah.
Second, how is it “preposterous” Obama doesn’t favor killing babies? You sound like a politician Rob. “Well, personally I’m against it but I wouldn’t support getting rid of Roe v. Wade or any other restrictions.”
Do you understand political people sit around and make up this stuff to ride the fence and appease both sides? Clinton started this kind of double-speak crap. Call it what it is, please.
It’s actions not words that matter.
Call a spade a spade.
Either you are conflicted but believe Obama-iah’s pro’s outweight his pro-choice stance or you truly are a liberal that believes abortion is merely an optional surgical procedure.
Which one is it?
Rob- Thank you for writing this piece and for responding to the objections- your sense of humor brought a smile to my face.
I struggled against accepting Christ for many years due to my own ignorance of what it means to truly be in relationship with Jesus. I am now proud to share with others that I am a Christian, although many of my (very liberal) friends were initially afraid that I had been brainwashed into blindly following an ultra-right wing philosophy since that is the view of Christians that often makes it into the media.
I was greatly influenced by “liberation theologists” before I even knew what the term meant. I grew up in a very poor neighborhood and have siblings who have served time in prison and others who suffer from substance abuse. My parents were both immigrants to this country and I KNOW them to be decent caring people who have struggled against odds many would not have been able to handle.
I, on the other hand, had the privilege of being born and raised in this great country- and despite the abuse of my childhood, through hard work (and God’s Grace) was able to attend an Ivy League college and worked my way to a senior VP position in a top financial services firm.
I am in the tax bracket that (if Obama wins) will be paying more taxes- and I have no problem whatsoever with that. I know that everything I have is not really mine to begin with. I used to be self-centered enough to believe I was the reason my life was different that that of my brothers and sisters. I thought I deserved all the good things I had worked so hard for. I now know everything I am and everything I have belongs to Him- and I am more than willing to be a good steward and use it in ways that helps others. Yes, the Church plays a role in helping the less fortunate, that is part of what the tithe is for- but taxes and offerings- are, in my opinion, a way of acknowledging that everything we have belongs to God and we should try to help bring the kingdom of God to earth (”love one another”).
As tempting as it is to want to take another vacation, get the plasma TV or buy the kids even more designer clothing- at the end of the day seeking your own comfort is a very empty experience. It is easy for many to point the finger and ask why those who need the help don’t do more for themselves- but I KNOW firsthand how hard life can be and the vicious cycle you’re caught in when you are struggling just to make ends meet, to find dignity and a sense of self-worth. I know what it feels like to go hungry, to worry about the safety of those you love, to be a bright kid in the hands of overburdened educators who spend most of the time disciplining the class. I know the humiliation of being treated as a “low life” because your family has to depend on food stamps to eat and trying to figure out others can be so thoughtless (and what I perceived as cruel) when they don’t know what is in your heart, when they don’t see how hard you are working just not to give up- to maintain a sense of hope.
As someone who HAS worked her way to a better life and (thanks to God’s goodness) has been able to provide a better life for her children- I reject the notion of an “us” against “them.” I would expand on Obama’s words- we are not all these separate groups- we are all even more than the United States- we are Humans. If we leave the greater good up to the decisions of individuals (or states), we will continue to end up with greed, excess and inequality. It is time for caring people to do what they can to ensure children are fed, the sick have access to quality healthcare, and our educational system meets the needs of our young people.
Like Shasto, I am not sure who is God’s choice for this election, but I pray we will all take personal responsibility for all our brothers and sisters- not just those who look like us, agree with our political views or have bank accounts that look like ours.
Thanks again for your thoughtful comments!
Just wanted to say I find this entirely uplifting and positive and I’m happy to have read this article. My own religious beliefs aside, hypocrisy and lack of self-awareness (coupled with cynicism) can become a twisted way for an honest good person to fall and become something he would hate, if he could see himself. Very glad to hear a voice speaking without that cloud of confusion and with a whole message that makes sense in all its points, and that the author obviously cares very deeply about. Glad to see a Christian who actually stands up for the professed beliefs of the faith.
“God politicized religion”? No way. Politics — and religion — were invented by humans.
Our God is a consistent God. You may find scriptures that may support your argument. The Bible is not a political nor science book. You need to know & acknowledge God in His entire authority and interpret His commands wholly & consistently. You cannot cut & paste or copy & paste scriptures. I cannot support a candidate who suport abortion & gay marriage as the Bible clearly oppose to these ideas & practices. Look at the public school conditions in Chicago. I regretfully had to terminate an unplanned pregnancy and I have to leave with the consequences for the rest of my life. Forgiveness was given to me but the consequence of my choice stands. I work for peace & justice in some part of the world in some of the most needy & abandon places. It’s exciting for me to see first black president in my life time. But I would rather wait for the right one to come. Obama’s record & background is grossly inconsistent to be America’s next President.
Rob J, does the J stand for Job?
I am so impressed with your patience, grace and tolerance while one after another person slings the same sorry slop out at you and at Obama. It must taste good in their mouths to continue to repeat these nasty words, otherwise, I don’t understand why they can’t see through the nonsense.
Many years ago I personally walked away from Christianity because I couldn’t stomach the hatred and sanctimonious double standards.
You are a breath of fresh air and give me hope that there really are a few true Christians with intellect. Thanks for posting.
A single candle casts a lot of light in these dark days. I’ll share this blog with as many people as I can.
8iron - Golf fan? I don’t have much game…my greatest accomplishment so far has been keeping the same ball through all 18 holes. Where I fell in relation to par, now that’s a different story!
Ironically, your’s is one of the least angry responses I’ve received to my article. I’ve been called everything from a fake Christian to a “f**ing idiot” for my views. Thanks. Anyway, in quoting something I said to Melissa above, you left out an important part, the discussion of Roe, but we’ll get back to that.
To answer your question, I am pro-life, as I’ve said in the article and elsewhere in the comment stream. I believe that life begins at the moment of conception and that abortion is effectively murder. What I don’t believe is that I have to fall on one end of a political spectrum because of that belief. I am fed up with Republican promises to illegalize abortion as a way to solve the problem. And this gets back to the greater part of my statement to Melissa that you left out. The GOP promise to overturn Roe is a smokescreen they’re using to get votes. I’m not saying we shouldn’t illegalize abortion, I’m being realistic and saying that we won’t - so we need to start looking at other ways to stop people from killing their babies. Republicans have attached “pro-life” to “anti-Roe” and have boxed Christians into a corner. The reality is that Roe is beyond legal precedent now and even the current conservative majority on the Court has refused to overturn it because it is too engrained in U.S. jurisprudence. The Court threw out an attempt by the original Plaintiff in Roe to have Roe overturned! That’s astounding - in essence the Court said that it wouldn’t even let the original litigant vacate her own verdict. That’s a conservative Court!! Overturning Roe ain’t gonna happen, no matter how many times the GOP promises it will. And I’m getting sick of being boxed into that promise. This isn’t an “ignorant, anti-Christian, liberal” thought, and I hope I’ve made you understand that.
The part of my comment you decided to quote reflects my belief that it’s time to start thinking outside the box on abortion, because I now have accepted that we have to live with Roe. In that regard, I like where Obama is coming from. He has layed out a plan to stop abortion at its root (you’ve already quoted the rest of my sentiment, so I won’t repeat it). The goal is to promote life, not to focus on a legal opinion. I appreciate that Obama is willing to reach out to the pro-life movement to engage in a dialogue that unites us in a common cause to truly stop abortions. Do I like that Obama’s pro-choice? No. But nor do I like that McCain/Palin’s alleged pro-life stance amounts to nothing. And I’ve looked at Obama’s “actions” not through the biased agenda of the political left or right, but through true information dissemination sources that are impartial, like factcheck.org and the like. I hope this addresses your quandry. Thanks for your comment.
Thank you so much for your well-thought out comments and the responses to those who disagree with you!
I am surrounded by a church family who completely disagree with my candidate of choice.
I’m truly tired of the lies that keep coming to my email inbox, in Christ’s name. I realize that these people are simply believing what they’ve been told (in regard to the lies) and that they truly do want to act in Christ’s name.
However, that just makes it harder to converse with them on the subject! You have made great points, and I thank you!
rabia - I am so sorry that you had to terminate a pregnancy, but I’m sure you know that God is smiling at you and that he loves you no matter what. You’ve sought forgiveness and “there is therefore now no condemnation…” You are brave, rabia. I admire that.
Now I implore you - please, please, please go on a true fact finding mission. There’s so much misinformation out there it’s astounding! Obama is against gay marriage and he is not “pro-abortion.” Please read my comments above yours and also below, in response to 8iron for Obama’s proposal to stop abortions and for why the Republican “pro-life” agenda will lead us nowhere. Please, don’t believe the lie that Obama is “pro-gay marriage” and “pro abortion”. Email me separately if you want to carry this discussion forward. My email address is on my Contacts page.
Yep…played a bit in my life.
Fair points. Appreciate you at least stating your position. I’m far from the zealot side. I would agree Roe is dead. Reality, not my view. Unfortunately, the courts decided this…I would personally like a vote on the issue–then be done with it one way or the other. And cows will fly someday.
I guess we will see in 4 years. Since I do not believe government ever solves moral issues, O’s ‘plan’ is purely pandering, just like the GOP. The difference is you like the fact he has a plan and the what the plan ‘is’. Success will be measured along with the cows flying but I wish him ‘good luck’.
I couldn’t disagree with O’s radical strategies more but just like the Clinton/Democrat congress of 1992-94 that got booted out by the Ginrich congress of ‘94, it’s inarguable the 2000-06 Bush/GOP legacy is SO, SO bad, a completely inexperience Senator with good oratory skills can win by promising to raise taxes and expand government beyond the likes Europeans will be proud. Thank you George Bush.
May god have mercy on your soul for supporting the anti-christ. The end times are near. Obama being elected was prophesized as one of the first signs of jesus’ return to earth, and the destruction of the secular world.
I was praying for all you have been saying…the writer, Rob and others… and I believe God gave me this today.
This is my warning to my people,” says the LORD Almighty. “Do not listen to these prophets when they prophesy to you, filling you with futile hopes. They are making up everything they say. They do not speak for the LORD!
They keep saying to these rebels who despise my word, `Don’t worry! The LORD says you will have peace!’ And to those who stubbornly follow their own evil desires, they say, `No harm will come your way!’
“But can you name even one of these prophets who knows the LORD well enough to hear what he is saying? Has even one of them cared enough to listen?
Look! The LORD’s anger bursts out like a storm, a whirlwind that swirls down on the heads of the wicked.
The anger of the LORD will not diminish until it has finished all his plans. In the days to come, you will understand all this very clearly.
“I have not sent these prophets, yet they claim to speak for me. I have given them no message, yet they prophesy.
If they had listened to me, they would have spoken my words and turned my people from their evil ways. Am I a God who is only in one place?” asks the LORD. “Do they think I cannot see what they are doing?
Can anyone hide from me? Am I not everywhere in all the heavens and earth?” asks the LORD. I have heard these prophets say, `Listen to the dream I had from God last night.’ And then they proceed to tell lies in my name.
How long will this go on? If they are prophets, they are prophets of deceit, inventing everything they say. By telling these false dreams, they are trying to get my people to forget me, just as their ancestors did by worshiping the idols of Baal.
Let these false prophets tell their dreams, but let my true messengers faithfully proclaim my every word. There is a difference between chaff and wheat!
Does not my word burn like fire?” asks the LORD. “Is it not like a mighty hammer that smashes rock to pieces?
“Therefore,” says the LORD, “I stand against these prophets who get their messages from each other– these smooth-tongued prophets who say, `This prophecy is from the LORD!’
Their imaginary dreams are flagrant lies that lead my people into sin. I did not send or appoint them, and they have no message at all for my people,” says the LORD.
“Suppose one of the people or one of the prophets or priests asks you, `What prophecy has the LORD burdened you with now?’ You must reply, `You are the burden! The LORD says he will abandon you!’
If any prophet, priest, or anyone else says, `I have a prophecy from the LORD,’ I will punish that person along with his entire family. You should keep asking each other, `What is the LORD’s answer?’ or `What is the LORD saying?’
But stop using this phrase, `prophecy from the LORD.’ For people are using it to give authority to their own ideas, turning upside down the words of our God, the living God, the LORD Almighty. “This is what you should say to the prophets: `What is the LORD’s answer?’ or `What is the LORD saying?’ But suppose they respond, `This is a prophecy from the LORD!’ Then you should say, `This is what the LORD says: Because you have used this phrase, “prophecy from the LORD,” even though I warned you not to use it, I will forget you completely. I will expel you from my presence, along with this city that I gave to you and your ancestors. And I will make you an object of ridicule, and your name will be infamous throughout the ages.’ “
Oh that was Jer 23:16-40 for your reference.
Rob J, Thank you for this post! I have begun to fear, for my children, that the fascist-leaning, intemperate, racist, divisive and hate-loving wing of modern GOP could cause the USA to slip into the same abyss that Germany fell into in the last century, either by leading or paving the way with bones of innocent and righteous people. I am Jewish, and have Christians as the majority of my friends. I have longed for someone of your faith, moral rectitude and courage to lay out what you have just said. What you wrote should be mandatory reading by everyone who enters a voting booth. I am happy that not everyone has drunk the single issue koolaid, and hope that starting next Tuesday, we Americans may again find a good and moral path to greatness among nations.
@Richard kimbasir
Wow! Obama is now the “Anti-Christ”. Okay. Well, then who is McCain? Cuz I see horns and a pitchfork, for sure. But maybe that’s just me.
RobJ
Thanks for an intelligent, thought-provoking article. I struggled with this, and I used to be a “One Issue Voter”, too. But I can no longer choose a candidate on one issue. To me, that is irresponsible and I could see Jesus speaking a parable about it.
If you’re truly “pro-life”, then you’re just as concerned with the quality of life for the living (on earth), as you are for those who live in the womb. One directly affects the other.
I don’t know about Obama’s heart condition — whether he’s a true believer. But I do know that I can think of very few “Evangelicals”, who I’d want to be president of this country. So many are out of touch, and seem to live under a rock. Too heavenly minded, and no earthly good.
Abortion is a heart issue. Change the heart, and the behavior will change. If you simply make abortion illegal, that will not change the hearts of those who may think that an unborn child is a terrible inconvenience — a noose around the neck. A dead weight.
We got a “pro-life” president now, and he’s a hot mess. Whole lot of men, women and children dying in a war, that’s all a big LIE. But, I digress.
Again, thanks for writing what you wrote, and join me in prayer for our country.
David Bolinsky, yes, yes, I agree with you wholeheartedly!
Thank you so much for this blog. You represented my views about voting for Obama and being honest to my faith in Christ. I have several Christian friends who need to hear your words and I will send the information about your site to them. May God bless your work.
Rob,
I am an optimist at heart, and so your post (passed on to me, a liberal-leaning socialist Christian from a catholic friend) was very encouraging. It echoes what I have heard on the radio and what I have seen from interviews with evangelical Christians. There is a change coming. The bible mentions caring for the world God has given us (the second command to us in the bible) and helping the poor well over 1,000 times more often than homosexuality or abortion. I think people are coming to an awareness, as your article points out, that it is not Christian to ignore large commands in favor of small commands. If I was pregnant and female, or if I were gay, I might have some excuse for concentrating on the minor issues, but as a straight rich white guy, when I read the bible, it is blindingly obvious what I should be paying attention to. I believe more people are realizing this — conservatives as well as liberals. I strongly hope the republican party will realize that they can no longer run on lip-service to Christianity via a couple of hot issues. I think they will.
I am pro-choice, but I would vote for a pro-life candidate who looks like they may address the issues that the bible thinks are 1,000 times more important in a heartbeat. Because I don’t think a perfect candidate will ever exist, and because I believe Christians have a moral duty to make voting choices, I have to vote for the candidate that I think will move the country closer to what God wants it to be. I believe a country which takes care of the poor, frees the wrongly imprisoned and helps the helpless comes closer to God’s vision than one that does not do these things, but is wrong on God’s will for homosexual marriage and abortion.
If I get to heaven and am told, no, actually it *was* more important the other way round, I will be most surprised. But hey, like I expect to get a decent grade anyway?
Very well stated! I agree!
mimi and David Bolinsky - thank you, thank you, thank you! From the bottom of my heart, thank you for your kind words. I am so pleased to know that God is counting me worthy to be used as a light. Honestly, I thought this post would go by the blogosphere unnoticed, as my page has been VERY low-profile until now. It is an honor to see that so many people have read and been touched by this post. Thank you again!
Rob J, thank you so much for this article. I am appalled by what in the current GOP seems to stand for “Christian values” which so far seem to be a hate-mongering, divisive and racist campaign. I was particularly disgusted at her introduction speech at the GOP convention where she mocked Obama’s community organization efforts. Her fact-free stump speeches that pander to fear and bigotry since then and her spurious claim that she was exonerated in the Troopergate scandal makes me wonder how she could continue to claim with a straight face that she has Christian values. Her hubris is breathtaking. And McCain has been no better. I have been hoping that other Christians would speak out against this and support a candidate that wants to spread hope and bring us together to work on making us a great country once again. Thank you!
I must repeat how impressed I am with the number of Christians who are finally seeing through the Republican party and its Pharisee allies. I don’t know any Christians, conservative or liberal, who believe abortion and gay marriage aren’t legitimate moral issues. However, to make a statement like Melissa did that they “are foundational for all other concerns we must address”, in the midst of an economic crisis and 2 wars, simply isn’t acknowledging even a fraction of what America is really facing right now.
I don’t agree with Barack on every issue, and it certainly doesn’t sound like he has a career as an orthodox theologian. But surely it can’t be said that GWB is any more ready to delve into the intricacies and paradoxes of God’s teachings, regardless of how much pandering he and other Republicans have done to the Pharisee right. Maybe more pertinent is whether it even matters to us as Christians whether the person we vote for has the exact same religious views and background that we do. I mean, we don’t live in a theocracy (thank God! The only Biblically-ordained theocracy was Israel when they followed Moses’ laws, and even with God literally writing the Law out for them, they couldn’t get it right!) and because of that, I believe as Barack Obama does, that as people of faith, our political agendas should try to turn our religion-specific causes into universal ones. The cause of Christ isn’t to change laws, but change hearts and minds, and because this country is not a mob-rule democracy, but a Constitution-based republic, this is best accomplished by promoting laws and policies that are as fair to atheists as they are to us.
Frankly, I think if there’s a great Biblical judgment headed our way because of our sin, it would have at least as much to do with the fact that we have tortured prisoners, ignored the masses of our neighbors who desperately need Good Samaritans, started a war of choice against people who never raised a finger against us before we invaded their sovereign land, etc., etc., as that we have gays among us and that abortion isn’t outlawed here.
Contrary to what the rabid right has said, Barack Obama and other Democrats are surprisingly open to innovative ways of addressing the problems of our day. For example, Al Franken, back in his radio host days, had on a guest that mentioned the policy of keeping the civil and religious aspects of marriage separate. Obviously that would insure that gays would retain their constitutional right to the same life, liberty and pursuit of happiness as heterosexuals through truly equal civil unions, but keep the decision up to religious institutions whether to grant Godly marriage status to these civil unions. Interestingly enough, this might present concerns to as many heterosexual couples seeking divine approval as gays (imagine a 80-year-old oil baron seeking a preacher to approve marrying a 19-year-old starlet he met 3 weeks ago!) but that’s a different matter. I believe this to be the most fair-minded compromise I’ve ever heard on the topic, and Al Franken, hopefully the next US Senator from Minnesota, could be front and center of the debate.
I don’t know many people who believe that making moral judgments on others’ behavior isn’t called for in the public forum. We all do it, in fact Barack Obama makes statements about parents doing a better job with their kids, as well as other social commentaries. However, one of the defining reasons that I consider myself a liberal is that I refuse to believe that other people’s Constitutional rights should be trampled upon just because I have moral disagreements with them. Abortion is morally wrong, the vast majority of Americans agree, but do we have the right to make laws that govern all of America based only on our personal religious views? Where’s the universal evidence that life starts at conception? Of course as a Christian, I believe it does, but unless we want to review the whole legal process of what constitutes life and what does not, then the same laws and precedents that allow a permanent vegetable to be taken off life support by guardian’s choice also say life doesn’t start until a particular point of fetal development.
Having said all of that, I am eager to have a respectful and spirited debate on the case for God and His teachings, any place, any time. I am confident that even in strictly secular venues, the case for living life God’s way will prove itself, as it has done so since Adam and Eve, and I hope that the true conservative Christians can join a liberal whacko Christian like me in that debate. And if we can’t agree to disagree on our politics enough to unite around that common effort, I will still vigorously defend their right to disagree with me; I guess I’m just hopelessly liberal that way.
Wow, Rob.
“Does the ‘J’ stand for ‘Job?’” That cracked me up. I so admire your patience and your clear commitment to bringing light without judging others’ spiritual condition.
Maybe my comments don’t belong here, because clearly my relationship with Christ is really, really different than many of those commenting– both those whose views harmonize with mine, and those whose views are very different from mine. All the same, Christ is the Light and source of reverence in my life and I have spent more than half a lifetime learning from the Bible and valuing its wisdom.
I can see the righteously angry Christ, who acts to protect That of God from the defilement of base materialism. I can see the God who is righteous and loving, and is every day provoked by the trespass of human evil.
But I cannot see That of God which demands that we enact God’s rage, God’s judgment, or even God’s requirements, upon our fellow humans. Christ leads me to transform myself. If, in that transformation, I fulfill the purpose of Christ, and witness that purpose and that transformation in ways that show the Light of Christ to others, it is not because I will it so, but because that is the Way it works. God is an awesome God Whose Creation is rich and complex beyond my mortal capacity to perceive.
I am steward only of my own relationship to Christ, I will be called to account for what I have learned of Christ and how I have transformed myself to Christ’s image. It is not demanded of me that I make others as I am– God’s purpose for me is not God’s purpose for others. We are a species of infinite diversity, linked only by the common thread of That of God within each of us, That Which calls unto Itself and summons us to love one another as God loves us.
I see Christ’s demand of me that I transform myself– and then Christ will work through me to transform the world. But I’m not arrogant enough to believe that I will ever complete that transformation. Nor am I foolish enough to believe that with only human capabilities, I can know exactly what action or choice or attitude of mine will have what result– in the short term ‘now’, in the long term ‘future,’ or in the infinity of eternity. Good intentions pave which road?
We fulfill God’s plan for us in what we do within our human sphere: How we treat this person, whom we are interacting with now. Do we act Christ’s compassion? Do we act mercy and humility? Do we act love? That is our responsibility.
We are not given to see all the vast complexities of a species of more than six billion people, their actions and choices, and the results of those actions and choices all influenced by each other. Our task is to do the best we can with the decision or choice that is before us, now, and trust the outcome to God, knowing that God’s time is not our time. Knowing that we may not see the results in this life. Knowing that sometimes our best efforts to do good appear to result in evil, and that God has the power to turn our most thoughtless and evil acts to God’s good purpose.
All of this is to say that everyone who votes based on the wisdom of Christ, seen through the human heart where Christ speaks, is doing God’s purpose. Rob asks the voice of Christ in his heart, what is the best choice for me to make in this election? And based on what Rob hears and sees in his heart –a heart shaped by the study of the Word of God, a heart where Christ dwells– Rob plans to vote for Obama.
8iron, Richard, Jenna and others ask the voice of Christ in their hearts the same question and receive a different answer. There is Biblical precedence for this. Throughout the Bible, messages are given for people and circumstances representing different aspects of God’s vast plan. The messages may differ (sometimes apparently to the point of direct contradiction!) but faith requires that we treat each as the Word of God.
Believe, friends in Christ, that everyone who steps into a voting booth or sits down with a ballot and takes action based on the voice of Christ, will be working Christ’s purpose. I cannot judge the rightness of your vote. You are free to judge mine, but in the end only Christ’s judgment matters.
The Lord be with you.
Wow Miranda, great post!
In a word, WOW.
Well-written, and clearly heartfelt. Thank you, Rob, for articulating my confusion and despair into words. My husband and I, both born-again believers in Christ, have very recently had our “awakening” to the clear hijacking of Christianity by the GOP via two hot-button issues. This realization has been terribly upsetting and uplifting at the same time. The material point is we feel as though we’ve been used. And we have since felt as though we were floundering all alone. I’ve had Republican friends send me a barrage of hate-mongering emails, trying to coax me back into the sheep-fold. The amount of brainwashing tripe being spewed by them truly saddens me. (”Brainwashing” is the term that comes quickly to mind.) They sound like parrots of FoxNews/Limbaugh/Coulter. To hear that kind of tripe from my brothers and sisters in Christ is so unChristlike in itself! I finally had to send a blanket email to them all asking them to cease, for my nerves were absolutely fried. What saddens, humbles, and shames me is that I used to sound exactly like them.
Again, thank you for putting my feelings, thoughts, and convictions on the page! It is comforting to know we are not alone in our realization of the abuse that is taking place in Christ’s name. Never should Christianity be so deeply entrenched in the pocket of a political party. Sounds rather pharisaical, does it not?
Your sister in Christ!
IndianaMackerel
PS: We’ve recently discovered http://www.sojo.net. Jim Wallis’ book on the Great Awakening is wonderful!
Rob J,
I had trouble understanding how a Christian could support Obama. Thanks for explaining your perspective. I must respectfully disagree.
My allegiance is not to McCain or the GOP. I have no illusions that the GOP will save our nation. The GOP has certainly disappointed me before, but not to the extent that I would support a candidate as liberal as Obama. Unfortunately, judging by factcheck.org, everybody lies or at least spins the facts. Both major parties have used mudslinging. Democrats have not been innocent of election fraud.
Simply because Roe v. Wade hasn’t been overturned doesn’t mean the GOP hasn’t done anything for the pro-life cause. The GOP is certainly not as fiercely pro-choice as Obama (http://www.citizenlink.org/content/A000008450.cfm), though he may not support infanticide, since an omission is homicide only when there’s a legal duty to act. The typical pro-choice solution to reducing unwanted pregnancy is comprehensive sex-ed and contraception, even if it amounts to endorsing teenage fornication. For those who might argue the President doesn’t have much influence in pro-life law, there is more at stake than the Presidential office itself (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122515067227674187.html), including U.N. staff appointments.
Life and liberty > property. I’ve blogged a little about this: http://weblog.xanga.com/Exhorter/679595832/the-bible-and-politics.html. I’d be interested in your opinion.
THANKK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for this well written article. I was beginning to think I was alone until I found your blog. I too am an evangelical who has just voted for Obama and I have already been told that I am not a real Christian as a result. It is like we are being asked to check our Bibles in at the door and stand in line to take the mark. I think that many evangelical Christians are more concerned with being the mouth piece of Rush and Hannity instead of the hands and feet of Christ.
We need new leadership among evangelicals. What I believe Dobson and many other evangelicals have done is create an “us vs. them” mentality, which ignores the Great Commission of going into all the world and reaching the lost. Therefore they are blowing our witness and either they don’t care or they are unaware of how we are being perceived by a lost and hurting world. God Bless you for writing this - it is an answer to prayer and you captured everything I have been feeling.
JVH
Great article I enjoyed reading and you articulated my own thoughts very well.
As for the the comment of Obama voting to let a live abortion die on the table. He voted that way because a law was already on the books requiring medical attention be given to the child.
I have a problem supporting or associating with Obama because he simply represents a “more holistic cross-section of Christian values” or “a broad swath of Christian values.” I agree that it can be dangerous to be a one issue voter, but not if a single issue is grossly in contrast to God’s value system; regardless of Obama’s “more” or “broad” Christian values that he aligns himself with.
I can respect that Obama claims he will address the issue of abortion at the root and reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies in this country, but there is a much greater grievance here for an individual who claims to be a Christian. And that is, Obama will not oppose murder in the womb and beyond that he indorses it with his vote and compatible legislation. In addition, he will not speak up that life begins at conception. This is not a value or worldview that Christians can vote for. Why would a devoted Christian behave in such an inconsistent way to God’s value system?
Paul reminded the Corinthian believers “…not to associate with anyone who claims to be a believer yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or is a drunkard, or cheats people. Don’t even eat with such people.” Now Paul doesn’t mention murder here, or the endorsement of, but it no doubt can be included. The key here is “claims to be a believer”; we would expect those who are not believers to behave in these ways as a lifestyle, but not from those who claim to be believers.
Although I am not at all opposed to voting for Obama, it is not because of some of the reasoning in this article. The biggest problem: there are too many Ad hominem attacks on John McCain. This is wrong. However, when the Right attempt to force people to vote based on one or two issues - as important as they are - it is also wrong because it leave no room for God, it ignores the rest of our political process; and ignores other very important issues. God is still in control no matter who wins. The USA will not fall apart if either candidate wins. Neither candidate is “evil” (granted, “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God “thus we are all eveil). Abortion will still be wrong, and marriage will still be between one man and one woman for life - regardless of who wins. America is not God’s blessings to the world, although I am patriotic and committed to my fellow Americans.
Brock - hey man, thanks for reading all my articles! It’s cool that you’re in the insurance industry, we need more honest Christians in that business! Let me start by addressing your first point - I also said McCain “will” do this or that, so I’m not having an Obama fantasy, I’m just taking the candidates at their word and assessing what will happen if their proposals come to pass. I do understand, though, that no president has been able to keep all his campaign promises. My use of “will” is reflection of the scenario whereby all of McCain’s or Obama’s proposals come to pass.
I want to try and dispel a common misperception about Obama’s healthcare plan that you seem to have expressed - that he will “nationalize healthcare”.
It’s true that Obama will create a National Health Insurance Exchange, but that’s not tantamount to nationalizing healthcare. Under Obama’s plan, if you like your private health plan, complete with its deductibles, copays, preferred doctor network, PPO/HMO/HSA/whatever status, you can keep it. If you don’t have insurance, that’s where the government comes in. NHIE, rather than “nationalizing” health insurance companies, is envisioned to act sort of like the Securities Exchange Commission, regulating the behavior of private entities and making sure they play by a fair set of rules. No one would say that the SEC federalized public corporations. Under the NHIE, people without health insurance will have an option of either (1) selecting a private health insurance company that is participating in the NHIE; (2) selecting a private health insurance company that is not participating; or (3) selecting the “National Health Plan”, which will be government-sponsored insurance similar to that offered to civil service workers. I’m sure you know that even under current “government” health insurance, people can select private insurers.
The NHIE is also similar to the SEC in that insurers opt-in (in the corporate analogy, you opt-in by having an IPO, if you don’t go public, the SEC doesn’t regulate you). Insurers who opt into the NHIE will have to play by a set of rules, but again, that’s not tantamount to “nationalizing” healthcare, much in the same way that FCC or FAA rules didn’t nationalize the broadcast industry or the aviation industry. In other words, private industry will thrive, but another layer of protection will be added so that health insurance is available to those who otherwise couldn’t afford it. Hopefully, insurance companies will want to compete against the government for those people’s money by lowering the cost of some services.
Now, I am a conservative Christian, so I understand your issues with Obama. I hope that you’ll forward me links to the Obama statements you’re referencing so that I can hear them in context, particularly those that lead you to the conclusion he was “picking and choosing” Scripture. You can send me a private email if you wish (email address is on contacts page). I can say, in the interim, that I’ve resolved my own issues because I’ve come to realize that Obama is a man of conviction and that he just has a different way of expressing those convictions through policy than does the GOP. The abortion example is that rather than the archaic and go-nowhere overturn-Roe-centric policy of the GOP, Obama wants to protect unborn children by enacting policies aimed at preventing unwanted pregnancies, thereby attacking the mindset that leads people to want abortions. This is smart because Obama knows that attacking Roe is not going to lead to fewer abortions. I’m glad to see a Christian thinking outside the box in this way. It’s not just “pro-life” and “pro-choice” anymore. Now you can add “pro-life-mindset” to the mix.
Now, regarding Obama’s “company,” I’ve seen some of Wright’s speeches in context and FoxNews (and YouTube) is doing a horrible cut-and-paste hack job on what the man was saying. FoxNews also forgot to mention that Wright was quoting a former Reagan ambassador when he said, shortly after 9/11, that the “chickens were coming home to roost”. I also have other views concernig Wright’s “quotes” that I can share with you through private email if you like. The simple fact is that Wright was taken out of context to inflame people and I’m not falling victim to that. We could make a big deal out of Sarah Palin’s connection to Alaskan secessionist and potential terrorist Joe Vogler (the link is to my article on the subject), or McCain’s very open and vocal support for unrepentent terrorist G. Gordon Liddy and McCain’s connection to the genocide agent John Singlaub, but at the end of the day, we all know somebody who’s actions we don’t agree with in total. I have friends who smoke. I wouldn’t want someone to say I’m a smoker. I have acquaintences who are Atheist; it doesn’t mean I hold their views. The guilt-by-association thing is, I think, overblown, especially when the people playing the game have their own associations to worry about. Besides, Obama also “keeps the company” of all the upstanding and nationally honored people who’ve endorsed him, such as Colin Powell. I could go on, but I think you get he point.
Regarding Michelle, I have views on the “proud of America” comment that I can share with you through private email. A different perspective is refreshing sometimes. I look forward to it.
Most of the detractors of this post have made comments like “how can anyone be a real Christian and vote for a candidate who isn’t firmly pro-life and anti-gay?” I say, “how can anyone be a real American and yet try to force their moral values on others in this free and open society of ours?” I think it’s time for the great debate that the extreme right has been itching for to get out in the open: do we live in a republic, or a theocracy? Only in a theocracy should our politics be firmly based on which candidate is going to pass laws that pass Christian muster or not. Otherwise we, as all other Americans, have a solemn obligation to vote based on what’s fair for all Americans, and leave our moral judgments to multimedia and, by golly gosh darn straight-tootin’, actually interacting with people in a Christlike manner instead of Bible-thumping. That doesn’t mean withdrawing from the public forums, far from it! Jesus spoke boldly, called people out when they were doing evil, but He did it being “wise as serpents, gentle as doves”. That’s what we need to spark a Christian revival in this nation. If we will humble ourselves, and speak wisely and gently, then people will try to trip us up but fail, and try to call us narrow-minded but be wrong. Unfortunately, Sarah Palin, apparently the next great representative of conservative Christianity in politics, is the absolute opposite of that. She is decisively uninformed and spews only venom wherever she goes…
Excellent post. Every election the Republicans throw out the plastic worm of Roe v. Wade to the school of Christians, and every election we bite.
Brian,
obamacrimes? they’re still whining that Obama isn’t an American by birth. Give me a break! Do you not imagine that he had to produce the proper documents before qualifying just like every other candidate has?
Do you think the government of the USA made an exception for him? This “case” has been thrown out of two courts already. How many embarrassing rejections do you have to go through before you people give it up??
How about concentrating on documented facts instead of lies? Yes, I guess that’s what you think is the Christian way.
Timothy - I am glad that you’ve “respectfully” disagreed. It does my heart glad to see someone respond to a Christian with respect rather than guile.
I have to respond to your points, though. Every respectable news outlet, and even some respected people in the GOP, have called McCain on outright lies. There’s a difference between the normal tendancy of candidates to spin facts and the tendancy of McCain/Palin to tell outright lies. There’s also a difference between forcefully pointing out a policy difference between you and your opponent (as Obama has done), or using past voting patterns and current campaign platform to show an indication of future policy choices (also as Obama has done), and engaging in the politics of character assassination by calling your opponent - a sitting U.S. Senator - a terrorist who is really no different than Osama bin Laden, whose real allegiance is not to the U.S., who is somehow anti American, who will usher in the era of Presidents appearing on the face of foodstamps, etc., etc., as McCain/Palin have done. If these people claim to represent Christ, their doing a disgusting job of showing it, and representing us.
And, honestly, all the GOP is committed to doing for the pro-life cause is promising to overturn or curtail Roe. On the former, as I’ve said above, it ain’t gonna happen. On the latter, all that can be done has been done. The GOP’s fixation on Roe is merely a tool to get devoted Christians to keep casting their votes. The GOP knows that Roe is a dead issue. And Obama is not “fiercely pro-choice”, notwithstanding what Citizen Link or Fox News say. By the way, as Citizen Link is an organization with an agenda, just like Fox News, I generally do not regard them as reputable. I don’t mean to offend you, I just prefer unbiased news sources (WSJ is good, though…although it is in the tank for McCain).
Now regarding Obama’s plans, I truly believe that since Obama is a Christian father, he does not want to endorse his daughters having premarital sex. And if preventing teen pregnancy means having sex education, I am not against it. Sex education is the conservative right-wing’s boogie man because we’ve been taught to believe there are teachers showing kids sex positions with dolls or, worse yet, with videos. I feel like a recovering brainwash victim. Sex education - which I had in public school - teaches about sexually transmitted disease and introduces students to the fact that they have reproductive organs and can get pregnant (or cause pregnancy). These are actually the dangers of pre-marital sex, not the joys of premarital sex. Sex education does not encourage pre-marital sex. Prime-time TV’s glamorization of sex may contribute, along with HOllywood, but not sex-ed. It’s time for Christians to cast off the chains of the sex-ed boogie man.
Roe is like nuclear weapons. Neither is going to disappear and the world has to learn to coexist with them. The goal, remember, is to protect the life of the unborn child, not to worry about a legal decision. If protecting the life of the unborn child means preventing the pregnancies of those who may terminate their pregnancies, I’m all for it. That’s Obama’s plan.
I’ll check out your blog and respond in your comment stream. Thanks for your commment here.
Kris - You may be referring to the fact that Obama responded to the “when does life begin” question by saying “that’s above my pay grade.” Probably a poor choice of words, but think about it. I think the point he was trying to make was that God knows and he doesn’t want to get into the business of trying to be in God’s head. Of course I believe that life begins at the moment of conception and it would be nice to know that Obama feels that way too, but look at the alternative.
Let’s start with your quote from Corinthians. Of the sins you mentioned, did you know that McCain has committed at least three that are publicly on record? McCain is an admitted and recent gambler (greed) who is on video gambling this election season. McCain also engaged in sexual sin by committing adultery on the wife who stood by him while he was a POW with, and subsequently leaving her for, his current wife. McCain is also abusive in that he openly - in front of news cameras - called his current wife a “c*nt” out of anger. I’ll return your question to you: “Why would a devoted Christian behave in such an inconsistent way to God’s value system?”
We’re voting for a President here, not the second-coming of Christ. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, so neither of our presidential candidates is going to act in a way that manifestly represents all that Christ stands for. The goal for Christians is to elect the candidate whose policies best represent what Christian values are. We are called to see that the sick are cared for and that the poor are nourished. McCain’s healthcare plan will cause people to lose their insurance. His economic plan will make the poor disproportionately poorer while the rich get richer (these are links to my articles on the subject; please read them). Obama’s plans will do the opposite.
And regarding protecting the sanctity of life, it’s disingenuous for McCain to say he’s pro-life but then enact policies that will affect poor people in such a way that they will be unable to provide adequate healthcare or sustenance for their children. These policies are against caring for the life that you claim to want to protect and they actually exacerbate the socio-economic stresses that lead women to seek abortions! We’re verging on hypocrisy here. Obama’s plan will remove those socio-economic stresses and focus on education to prevent unwanted pregnancies, thereby having the result of actually decreasing and hopefully eventually eliminating abortion. That’s something I can sign on to.
ROB for PRESIDENT!!!!!!!
Rob, you are so on it here. Thank you so much for your FACTS and TIME and willingness to be an INFORMED voice in this debate.
May God keep you and bless you!
Psalm 34:3
Hey Rob.
Thanks for taking the time and effort to put this together. As I added in an email I sent to you, I think this could be supplemented with passages from Amos, Micah, and Habakkuk regarding God’s desire for us to demonstrate mercy and justice in our societies, particularly to the poor.
Regarding the Rev Wright sermons, it was always my feeling that he was preaching out of a tradition similar to the prophets, in which they held rulers accountable for injustices in society. I actually posed a hypothetical situation in a (predominantly evangelical) Christian forum in which a street preacher pronounced a curse on the country, and asked if that would make him anti-American. … I didn’t get any responses from those who have judged Rev Wright so harshly. In my opinion, one can love his country, and pronounce judgment upon it at the same time. … The hypothetical situation I posed was loosely based on the prophet Jeremiah. … No one doubts that he loved his country. I haven’t listened to Rev Wright’s sermons in context, but I wouldn’t be surprised at all if he were to have quoted one or more of the prophets as the scripture from which he was preaching.
Anyway, thanks again for your efforts here, as well as the time you have taken to dialogue with those who have differing views. Clearly this hits on some topics which are emotional flashpoints for many. I’m glad to see that, for the most part, people here are conducting themselves in a manner that’s worthy of Christ.
You said, “I do not have any messianic delusions about Obama, but his career background and political message indicate that he has tapped into Christ’s message, and that he understands that a leader must be an advocate for all of us, not just those in his voting bloc.”
Clearly Obama has NOT tapped into Christ’s message with his definition of sin when asked about it on the radio. Obama answered when asked “What is sin?”…Obama-”Being out of alignment with my values.” Try being out of alignment and not meeting God’s biblical standards of perfection. Rob, where have you been? This is NOT Christ’s message about sin! Obama tapped into his own message, not Christ’s. And, if you listened to his pastor, you would not hear Christ’s message either. I have listened to Obama’s pastor. Clearly his message does not line up with God’s Holy Word!
Also, haven’t you heard the video in an Obama speech several years back about The Warren Court? Things like how the Warren court … ” didn’t break free from the essential constraints that were placed by the founding fathers in the Constitution”. “Break free”? “Break free?!” We thank God that those constraints are there! They LIMIT the power of what government can DO to YOU!!! This guy wants to BREAK FREE from the constraints of the Constitution … the very document on which our country is based!!!!
This man is DANGEROUS!
Obama on redistribution (transcript of 2001 interview)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkpdNtTgQNM
Why don’t you start listening to what Obama actually says. His views do not align themselves with God’s Word. Besides, his view to “break free” of the “constraints” of the constitution” will not give us the “American Promise”, as you stated, but will destroy the American Dream that this country was founded on by Christian men, like it or not…they were Christian men!
Lastly, you accuse Christians of being “one issue voters.” Did you know that signing the Choice Bill will eventually lead to Christian doctors having their licenses revoked if they don’t perform abortions? If you are against abortion, you should support legislation that will stop this attrocity from happening! Education in schools alone will never end abortion. We have to take legislative stands for what is right!
You say that you are a Christian, but you sound very mean spirited toward us!
Please pray and think this over! Wake up Christians! Obama is not your friend! He has ties to terrorists like Bill Ayers. His pastor says God d–m America and if Obama gets in offfice with a Democrat majority, our voice WILL be silenced by the courts. WAKE UP. Fast and seek God and your own heart. As a Christian it is uncomprehensible to me why any Christian would vote for him. I understand the GOP does not reflect all of our values either, but voting for a socialist like Obama who stands for partial birth abortion and gay marriage and the fairness doctrine which will kill Christian broadcasting IS NOT the answer. WAKE UP! I Pray that the Lord takes the scales off your eyes in Jesus name. Obama also blasphemed the Word of God..Hello! He is a wolf in sheeps clothing! Satan came as an angel of light too. Read about the rise of Hitler. 6 million Jews died and Christians believed in his “change” too. If it is money/health you are concerned about. Trust GOD NOT GOVERNMENT. Please pray,fast and reconsider your vote..Our nation is at stake!!
AMEM, Rob! Very well said and you voiced my opinion exactly. I have felt used by the Rep party for the past few years. I used to be a “James Dobson, Rush Limbaugh” fan clubs, card-carrying member and was duped! But, no more!
I support Obama because Jesus told Peter, after Peter denied him three times, to feed His sheep, clothe His sheep, and again, feed HIs sheep in response to how to show Jesus we love Him (John 21) Obama is in synch with this kind of compassion. I could go on and on about lives lost in Iraq etc, but for the sake of time will just add that you are correct and your thoughts came to me at a crucial time as I am barraged with well-meaning, saved Christian brothers and sisters who are supporting McCain. Grace and love to all! I do not judge as I have “been there done that” too. I was brainwashed with guilt over the pro-life issue and that became my single issue voter response. Not any longer.
I would now ID myself as independent. I renounce abortion in all its forms. Life is precious to God-but that includes ALL life, not just the unborn, (what about war victims?) though the unborn are so precious to our Lord. I believe the answer to the abortion problem is in how we, as Christians interact, with the love of Christ with others on a daily basis. That includes, financially supporting unwed mothers and crisis pregnancies through both our own love offerings as well as tax dollars to help support them, in addition to working in CPC’s of some sort. The plain truth, and this is fact, in countries where abortion is legal AND they have programs of welfare to support women in crisis pregnancies the abortion rates have a dramatic drop. So, is focusing on a law from 1973 going to eliminate abortions? NO! We CANNOT legislate morality-we must win over sin with the love of Jesus. Feed HIs people. Cloth the unwed and unborn and provide for them. This is my view.
I do NOT support gay marriages, but rather, think our government should stay out of personal lives of its people. Why should the government know my sins or anyone else’s? What is it to them? Why are we even discussing it? Those of us who believe Gods word is truth, know that gay sex is wrong. Those of you who do not believe Gods word, I am praying that you give it a chance and see if God is who He says He is and why his plan for a man and a woman to engage in “marital” relations is a “by design” beautiful thing that honors and is pleasing to God, our Elohim, our Creator. However, we must not forget that Jesus chose to hang out with the lowest of sinners, telling them the truth of their sin, IN HIS GREAT LOVE! He first loved them. Personally, I want to be about my Saviors work in a spirit of love, not condemnation. I choose to love homosexuals. If they want spousal rights does that change anything? It is still sin. The damage is already done. Why focus on whether they have spousal rights. This is Not something I support but rather it loses significance when put in perspective of what is happening around the world and to this country. There are other atrocities of sin just as devastating if not worse.
Next, I do not believe when I cast my vote for president it is about voting for who is, or is not a Christian. Only God can judge a man/womans heart, not me. I am casting a vote for who I believe will end war, favor the poor and middle class, reduce waste, and support programs for the less fortunate and tax those to whom much has been given, not give them huge tax breaks and corrupt deals. I want a president who will engage in EVERYTHING else before engaging in war, especially a war for inaccurate reasons.
The use of emotion-provoking issues to garner votes is just wrong!
Rob,
Thank you so much for this. I appreciate the depth of the work you’ve done in articulating such a strong case for Obama. Thanks also for the grace you’ve shown to your detractors. Keep up the good work!
Wow, let me catch my breath. I too share your thoughts exactly. I am most disgusted with they hypocrisy we see now in the new “Christian” club. You I ask “What would Jesus do” and I also ask, “Does he need our help?” - That prayer by the pastor telling God to guard his own reputation. That pretty much says it all… God no longer is in control, he needs our help.
Makes me think of a few stories in the bible where God pretty much wiped the whole lot out.
How about we do what we are suppose to do… just read the red parts in the bible. He is right on the money. I wonder if Jesus was running and he campaigned where the prostitutes hang out… Oh wait.. he did go where the prostitutes hang out, he went where the sinners hung out, he went to the poor, the weak. I just see those High and Mighty “chosen” religious leaders being the true Christians or thinking they are. What did Jesus do with those guys…he rebuked them. And went to Mary, the prostitute and forgave her sins.
This is about Man, Man wanting Power and Man corrupting the Power. Male or Female, power and money corrupts. Sarah is just one more in that mix… and she will be the one accountable for it.
Not sure about JM. He is pretty quiet about this, but at the end of the day we Christians need to remember. Jesus doesn’t need our help. He has all this under control.
Keep writing. I am inspired.
Hurray for this article! I am neither Republican nor Democrat, but I am a born-again, Spirit-filled, charismatic Christian, sold out for Christ, and I voted for OBAMA. I just left my church due to hatred, division and racism in the pulpit against Obama and the church trying to tell people how to vote. The so-called Christians spreading lies, slanders and hatred are NOT Christians, we have been warned about the wolves in sheep clothing! I was sent an email from Dutch Sheets, pastor in Colorado Springs, referring to Obama and witchcraft, demons, etc. This is just so sad and sick. I rebuke those words in the mighty name of Jesus! My Bible says that slanderers and those who lie about others are going to HELL - read 1 Cor. 6: 9 - 10. We need to pray for these people and intercede so that they repent of their evil ways, seek God’s forgiveness and get saved. God is love, not hate! AMEN.
Rebecca – When you take quotes out of context to suit your agenda (or rather, when you work on the segments that were given to you by your agenda based news sources without bothering to hear the quote in-context) you do yourself and others to whom you’re trying to minister a disservice. Please go back, with a clean heart and an objective mind and listen to the “sin” quote and the “Warren court” quote in context because trust me, you are drawing the totally wrong meaning from them. You’ve also accepted James Dobson’s spin on the so-called “Choice Bill”. That’s about as truthful as the disgusting “2012 letter” his group is sending out. Plus, you’re clinging to the idea that somehow legislation can stop people from having abortions but education cannot. Please read my responses to comments above yours; I have spelled out in fine detail why legislation will not solve the abortion problem. The GOP has us in a Roe-centric box that we as Christians have to break free from.
And please, stop bringing up Rev. Wright. I have also thoroughly addressed the FoxNews-created “story without substance” that is Rev. Wright. Please look at the comments above yours. For far too long, Christians have been willing to listen to whatever non-issue the GOP tells them is an issue and then run with it like it’s their own. That is tantamount to willfully letting someone brainwash us. We need freedom.
We need to start thinking for ourselves and stop letting the GOP, Rush Limbaugh and racists like Jerome Corsi tell us what to think.
And you say I sound mean-spirited toward you. Please reread the article. I was self-inclusive; thus, my article was mainly addressed toward my own feelings of being a co-conspirator in the GOP’s hate games. If I’m being “mean-spirited” as you claim (and this is only because you took offense to an opposing viewpoint), I was being mean-spirited toward myself.
Les Patton (and Rebecca) – please look up the definition of the word “socialist” and get back to me with an explanation of why a candidate – Barack Obama – who is following Keynesian economic theory backed up by leading capitalist economics is suddenly socialist. Is it because of an out-of-context GOP quote? I think so. Please, think for yourselves. John Maynard Keynes was an Adam Smith-schooled capitalist economist who is basically responsible for many of the New Deal laws. Obama is merely promoting Keynesian economics. I spelled this fact out above as well. This is not socialism. Please think for yourself and stop letting Joe the Plumber tell you who is and isn’t a socialist. The GOP is lying to you!!!!
And Bill Ayers. Obama was eight years old when Ayers was active. They sat on a Board together that was founded by the Annenberg Foundation. The Annenbergs served as Ambassador (Willliam) and Chief of Protocol (Leonore) under the Reagan Administration. Leonore Annenberg – who still heads the Annenberg Foundation – has endorsed John McCain. A former Nixon Administration official also served on that Board (is he “pallin’ around with terrorists” too?), as did the president of the University of Illinois, the president of Northwestern University, who happens to be a Republican, and the president of The Chicago Tribune, a Republican- leaning newspaper (are they also “pallin’ around with terrorists”?). So when you look at GOP smears in context, they don’t have much meat, do they. (Re: the falsity that is Rev. Wright…look above).
Obama does not “stand for” partial birth abortion or gay marriage. In fact, as I’ve said countless times, Obama’s platform is vocally against gay marriage. In addition to all the times Obama has said it, Joe Biden said so at the nationally televised Vice Presidential debate. I’ve also addressed Obama’s “stand” with regard to abortion above ad nauseum. Killing Christian broadcasting? How much fear mongering are we Christians going to allow ourselves to fall victim to before we finally wake up and say ENOUGH!!!!. That is simply not true.
And comparing Obama to Hitler…that was below the pail. I need not say anymore to refute that baseless, slanderous, hateful accusation. I really am sorry that my fellow Christians have allowed themselves to be so fooled by a Party of hate….
Rob, excellent post. Thank you for taking the time to post this with such depth and with much thought. I applaud you.
Re: Gay Marriage
Here’s a NYT article about the two candidates. Interestingly, Obama is opposed to gay marriage based on his Christian convictions. McCain, on the other hand, is said to reject gay marriage based on his “generational and cultural experiences rather than religious conviction.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/01/us/politics/01marriage.html?partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
Rob I appreciate your courage with this blog. It is a blesing but as always I am a socratic Christian who is a social radical conservative (inside joke).
The evangelical Christian right movement that we are seeing become a prevailing culture in America in recent years is very disturbing and mainly because of this one question: When you think of an evangelical Christian what comes to mind?
If it is anything but the Gospel of Jesus Christ we as Christians have all failed. What is our purpose as Christians? I agree as Rob stated in the blog entry that the “voting your values” email that was sent out is a sad example of Christ, because it is much more profound is Dobson would have passaionately sent emails that said “live your values”
The thing about being Christian is that we have one allegiance and its not to the United States of America. It is to live a life as a slave unto righteousness, being nothing but a vessell for Christ. As Christians we are followers of Christ.
Now for me, it is easy for me to disregard America because of my perspective. To just give a little, America is the most successful terrorist nation since the Holy Roman Empire and if you look behind the veil of freedom that this country portrays you will see just like any nation run by humans it is rampant with corruption, greed, hatred, and power the same as any other negatively portayed country such as Iraq or WWII Germany. I bet most people don’t realize that from the end of slavery 1875 to 1968 the end of Jim Crow, more African Americans died than Jews died in the holocaust and Iraqis in the George W Iraq war combined. Was it defined as genocide, was it given a special name of autocity, did other nations call American presidents during that period dictators, Was governors like George Wallace called warlords, Was Christianity called an axis of evil? The answer to all of these is no. I said I would give a little but believe me there is more. But with all of my disdain for the hypocrasy of America, as a Christian I am called and compelled to pray for the leadership of this country. So even though I disagree with the approach of this country I have to humble myself and pray for who I don’t agree with or like.
This evangelical doctrine is severely short sighted and not God focused but organization focused. Here are a couple examples:
Abortion - the overarching evangelical view is that abortion is wrong and it is murder and murder is unacceptable and is a sin against God.
Hypocrasies of this view -1. many of the same people who have this view about abortion support war in the name of “freedom”. War is not self defense it is premeditated murder if someone is against abortion which is just another way of saying the murder of a child than they should be against murder period in all forms.
2. Christians are the most ferverent group against abortion but they are the least likely to adopt. Prevention is what Christians should be about regardless of what the law is there is a lot of energy at banning abortion but not as much at preventing teen pregnancy and dealing with contraception which is another taboo issue evangelicals discuss at length but really don’t deal with that or fornication in general.
Bottom line with abortion is that it should not matter whether its legal or not I feel like it should be legal, because people who choose to do it will do it regardless whether its legal or not. But make it legal so that people who choose can do it safely and in the care of a physician. However as Christians our focus should be in preventing fornication and making sure people understand the consequences.
Evolution - The evangelical view is the natural selection is the biblical adaptation of how the world was created.
How stupid are we? Does it matter which way the world was created. Genesis itself has two accounts of the same story. The Bible purpose is the to communicate God’s love to us. And show his yearning to re-establish a relationship with us. It is not a historical account, it is not the authority on geographical history of the world. If God wanted us to know exactly how he created the world he would have been more specific, but He is more interested in us knowing that he created the world. So insteas of us as Chrisitans telling people how God made the world, we should be adamant about the fact he created the world. Whether you believe he did it through natural selection or evolution God is awesome both ways.
Those are two examples but and I could go much more but my main point is this. We are beginning to repeat the actions of the Holy Roman Empire. Always remember this Romans 10:9 says whoever confesses with their mouth and believes in the heart that Jesus is Lord ans Savior shall be saved. It does not say whoever is Christian and believes, so when we have Christians who say that the Islamic faith is a religion “we” should declare war on just remember someone who lives a muslim life and holds on to muslim customs but believes in their heart that Jesus is Lord they are saved. Christianity is personal not doctrinal.
As a follower of Christ my allegiance is to love, I am a slave unto righteousness, the beatitudes are my way of being and nothing else matters. If we made the above the focus of Christianity would we really care about who is right, left, wrong, white, red, yellow, purple or black; we would only care if they were loved.
When people hear the word Christian love should be the first thing that comes to mind. Look at your own life and ask yourself when people see me do they say Christian and do they see love
Just Some Thoughts,
Rob, I really appreciated all the work and concise data you put into this article. I do have one question. I thought Obama was pro-choice (meaning he feels the woman should make the decision to abhort if her health was in danger) but that does not mean he is pro-abortion does it?
Rob, My brother sent me your article, this was my response….
My first problem with this article is the man’s question, “Why should I vote two of my values with the exclusion of all others?” What all others? He didn’t list any other than the issue of poverty! He did not answer his own question!
Here is the problem with the tax problems and proposed resolutions by Obama: First, look at the facts and historical data for the last 60 years. The Fed has not seen an increase in income due to raising taxes. Ever. In fact, the exact opposite is true. The government sees a greater income when taxes are lowered. Second, specifically targeting a class of people for a tax increase is not only unfair, but it is against everything that this country stands for. (”Don’t expect to build up the weak by pulling down the strong.” -President Coolidge) You see, before I am middle class, I am American. What this means is that I look at what benefits the country as a whole before I look at what benefits me. Maybe that comes from giving up eight years of Chistmas’, anniversaries, Thanksgiving dinners, weddings, and birthdays for the greater good of this country. Taxing the rich specifically to fund a tax cut for the poor is flat out unamerican! Way beyond the financial unfairness of this comes the social rammifications that will last forever. Obama has defined successful, unsuccessful, rich, and poor. It’s all about money isn’t it. This definition of rich and poor will last long after the tax rates have changed a hundred more times. (”A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the Public Treasury. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with a result that democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy always followed by dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years.” -Sir Alexander Fraser Tyler)
You see Joel, the American people have become a “Here and Now” people. We focus on what will help us, as individuals, right at this very moment. This is the reason that Obama’s tax plan looks so inviting. It will help the middle class, now! The absolutely most vital piece of advice that I can offer anyone is to WATCH WHERE WE ARE GOING. Where is this plan going to take us in 10 years? We define rich and poor today, tax the rich, and in 10 years the government will start imposing income caps! Yes it seems extreme, but with the way Obama’s plan starts out today, if you think that income caps will never happen then you aren’t looking forward. I will probably never make over 250K a year and the last thing I want is for the wealthier people to give me money, against their will! (”Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There was NEVER a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” -President John Adams)
Also, Obama has proposed several new plans to help the less fortunate members of society. (The 10 Commandments contain 297 words. The Bill of Rights is stated in 493 words. Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address contains 266 words. A recent federal directive to regulate the price of cabbage contains 26,911 words.” -The Atlanta Journal) How will he fund this? The first cut he will make is from the Department of Defense budget and you know it! That’s the first place Clinton made cuts. And please stop preaching about how we are spending 10 billion a month in Iraq! That 10 billion is paying the salaries of the troops, paying for equipment needed for them to survive, paying for medical service to all the 18 year olds who get their legs blown off, and pays survival benefits to the families left behind. In return, every one of those soldiers is paying taxes and supporting the Fed. Let me ask you, how much do we spend on Welfare a month. Welfare to people who don’t work, don’t pay taxes, don’t support the country or the economy? (”The government is good at one thing…it knows how to break your legs, then hand you a crutch and say, ’see, if it weren’t for the government you wouldn’t be able to walk.’” -Harry Browne) Start looking at our country as a balance sheet, Assets and Liabilities. People in the Asset column aid the progress and growth of America. People in the Liability column cost America. On a financial balance sheet, liabilities are just money. On a country’s balance sheet, liabilities are so much more than money. Does it really make sense to add to and support our liabilities? On the flip side, doesn’t it make sense to support and defend your greatest assests? (”The Constitution only gives people the right to persue happiness, you have to catch it yourself.” -Benjamin Franklin)
Health Care ties right into this as well! How much are we spending on health care for illegal aliens? MILLIONS, and millions, and millions!!!!!! Back to our balance sheet, any corporation will agree, it is not enough to just increase your assets without continuosly trying to decrease your liabilities. Illegal aliens have the same access to Emergency Rooms that you do, except they don’t pay for them. You and I pay for medical insurance and then have to pay what that insurance doesn’t cover. Illegals don’t pay a dime. Obama has never addressed immigration reform with a policy that benefits American Citizens, or illegal aliens access to the health care that you and I pay for. Asset or Liability? To make matters worse, Obama has clearly stated that Health Care is a RIGHT! You show me in any government document including the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights where health care is a right. (”It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on him not understanding it.” -Upton Sinclair) You can’t, but Obama has promoted himself above the founding fathers and all the Presidents that have come before him and has decided that health care is now a right. So now more of my tax dollars will go to the Fed so that they can provide health care for those that can not afford it. Fine, but I want it to be an effective program at the very least. I know however, that it will not be effective because of the other government programs like Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and Welfare. These are the most slovenly programs; they are going bankrupt. Now the Fed is going to start providing health care with our tax dollars, smart.
MORALS, ETHICS, AND VALUES:
Joel, please remember when you vote, you are not voting for your values because the Presidential candidate does not know your values. You are voting for the candidate’s values! The blogger’s message sounds just like Obama. Just saying you are an Evangelical Christian doesn’t mean a thing. Obama claims to be an ultra-devout Christian who attended Pastor Wright’s church for 20 years yet is incapable of publicly stating when life begins. Just because Obama claims to be a strong Christian doesn’t mean jack! Just like this blogger. I am not going to vote based on my values, I am going to vote based on what Obama’s values are. If you are pro-abortion that is perfectly fine with me, you have every right to feel that way. But don’t claim to be a Christian! What is giving Christian’s a bad name is all of these self-proclaimed Evangelical Christian’s who the public sees voting pro-abortion because it contradicts what they know Christian’s stand for. Gay marriage does nothing but devalue marriage. Just the same, Christian’s who vote for a pro-choice candidate do nothing but devalue Christians. Christianity will be weaker because now, Christian values can be bent depending on which tax plan you prefer. Christians have a strict, clear, and concise set of morals and ethics. Not anymore. Because we like Obama’s economic policies, Christians can throw some of there standards aside. All it sounds like is an excuse to take the easy road and not stand by your set of known standards. You sending this article out sounds like you are looking for a validation that ignoring Obama’s moral, ethical, and religious views is OK. Remember that in voting for Obama you are also voting for Obama’s blindingly clear support of people like Pelosi, Ginsberg, Gore, and groups like the ACLU. (”Men fight for freedom, then they accumulate laws to take it away from themselves.” -Unknown) People who are not only eating away at the moral and ethical foundation of this country, but are hacking away at our rights, freedoms, and independence.
(” Of the 22 civilizations that have appeared in history, 19 of them have collapsed when they reached the moral state America is in today.” -Arnold Toynbee, quoted by Senator Miller D-Georgia.)
America has lost it’s sense of duty and responsibilty. Nobody will admit that anything is their fault anymore. They foreclose on their home, Bush’s fault; the levy breaks and they are forced to loot their own community for televisions, Bush’s fault; they aren’t getting free handouts, Bush’s fault. The job of the federal government is to do just that, govern. Not save! This country was built on the principle that nobody got anything for free and you had to work hard and depend on yourself. That’s how we got to where we are today. People like Obama want citizens to be dependent on the government, not themselves. It’s just not American. This blogger wants to talk about sheep. Remember, sheep are 100% dependent on the sheppard for their survival. I would prefer not be dependent on the Fed for survival. Crazy me!
Sorry brother, America comes before my health insurance, tax rate, bank account, and home. Our citizens do not need and economic policy to believe in, they need a COUNTRY to believe in! (”Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost” -President John Quincy Adams)
-Matt
Thank you Rob for this article and for speaking out. You truly spoke to my heart.
Let me address this economic issue. First and foremost, we do not have an isolated US economy. This idea that there is a US economy is hilarious. Capitalism is the dominant construct that controls the global economy. While democrats and republicans, liberals and conservatives fight over irrelevant issues like taxes (I will explain in a second), corporations do not care because this system of capitalism thrives regardless of individual countries. Think about this Walmart & Microsoft have more money in cash than every nation in the world has in reserve. So I am saying all of this to say to all of ya’ll who want quibble over distribution of wealth, because whether you like it or not 10% of the world’s companies control 95% of the wealth. This is why as Americans we should be critical of our country as opposed to believing patriotic rhetoric. Bottom line is that in this world there are the rich and the poor. The middle class is a fallacy and a construct created as the consumer class of which the capitalistic system can capitalize on. Adam Smith, who really is the grandfather of modern capitalism at his core was a socialist. Because true, ideal capitalism focuses on establishing a natural price by truly openning markets to all, thus forcing the lowest price. However capitalism in practice today is just several collections of monopolistic entities that collude to control new entrants into the market. That’s why its so funny that socialism is consider a bad thing, yet Americans would rather a system of jobism, where employees have no control over their own wealth, no control over their own time, no control over their own dreams. Yea that’s right jobism fostered by the capitalistic system is slavery and just like the slavery in the beginning of America, the slaves who are controlled by their masters begin to believe lies about themselves that their masters have told them to control them. Think about it, most of you go to school and study hard to get a good paying job. You work harder and harder all with the goal of climbing the corporate ladder, then the Rockerfellers and the Carnegies create this contruct called the America Dream, so that all of you can by in and work hard to be apart of the middle class. I could go on with this but I think a lot of what I say will be dismissed because most people are sleep walking and believe what they are told.
This is why like I mention before, Christians need to stop waisting their time worrying about non issues. The battle is not flesh and blood but with principalities. Its a spiritual battle and the father of lies created this greed infested system called capitalism and it is our job as Christians to understand that giving and sharing with one another is the answer just as was done in the early church. But naturally we are all selfish, me included and just as always Christianity is not about yourself but others and when we realize it, we can truly make an impact on the world.
I am African American and a former democrat turned independent. I found this post well written but inaccurate on many levels.
The abortion justification is sad. So because poor people can not afford to take care of children we should justify abortion? Does that mean because I can not afford to pay my bills, we should make it legal for me to rob a bank?
Obama is anti-christian values, don’t let the fact that he masks his true beliefs because he goes to church here and there. His campaign has viciously attacked Palin’s kids and he goes after Joe the plummer, because he does not drink his “kool aid”. Not very Christian like!
He has lied about campaign financing and his past voting recording on raising taxes.
Why are so many people hypnotized by Obama? I guess all you have to do is be a really good, charismatic politician to fool people. Christians should vote for the lesser of the two evils, John McCain.
Matt - you spent a lot to time quoting things that amount to nothing, but let me start with one of your quotes - “Start looking at our country as a balance sheet, Assets and Liabilities.”
Okay, here’s the country as a balance sheet. McCain’s wonderful plan to give the rich all the money they can dream of (this is what you want, right?) will add $5.1 trillion to the liability column of your balance sheet in ten years. Why didn’t you quote that? The tax cuts for the wealthy corporations that you favor so strongly will alone cost us $1.7 trillion (that also is a liability, fyi). But I guess, for someone so disgusted by welfare, giving rich corporations a welfare check to the tune of $1.7 trillion on the backs of poor and working class citizens doesn’t bother you much, does it? You’re only bothered when the rich are seemingly giving money to aid the poor, not when the poor are giving money to fund the rich. I guess you have no concept of the fact that McCain’s tax plans are wealth-redistribution upstream. I guess you also have no concept of what class warfare really is, either. But, although you admittedly make less than $250k/year, I guess you have no problem helping to fund the Google CEO’s new private jet.
Perhaps, since you’re into quotes so much, you should read the Communist Manifesto. You speak of the fear of democracy dying (or, rather, you employ Cracker Jack box, out-of-context quotes of people who seem to fear democracy’s collapse). Well, Marx predicted capitalism would die when the poor (the proletariat) realized that the wealthy class (the bourgeoisie) were working them to death and taking all their money to fund opulent lifestyles. You know, when the poor realized they were providing welfare to the rich. Since we’re into throwing silly, absent-of-definition words like “socialist” around, perhaps I should accuse you and John McCain of trying to usher in Communism - that, after all is the democratic death you seem to fear so much and yet display a total absence of conceptual understanding for what preventing that collapse requires.
But perhaps before you read Marx, you should read TANF, you know the federal statutory aid program that replaced AFDC more than a decade ago. You see, the welfare that you’re ranting about - you know, the mythical Reagan-esque one where there’s a big black “welfare queen” pulling up to the government office in her Cadillac to get a welfare check - never existed, and TANF is certainly as far from “welfare queens”, and even AFDC, as Putin’s head is from Alaska. Your rants about welfare, immigrants and Katrina victims gives a dismaying glimpse into what your real views (ahem, prejudices) are.
And, please baseless ranting aside…prove to me that we’re spending “MILLIONS, and millions, and millions!!!!!” on healthcare for illegal aliens. Oh, and John McCain effectively said healthcare was a right as well - he said it was government’s “responsibility” to ensure that everyone had healthcare. That was the same debate where Obama used the word “right”, but I guess that one missed your Quote-O-Meter, eh?
And then there’s your little spiel about what the $10 billion/month is going toward in Iraq - providing medical service to 18 year olds whose legs have been blown off. Thanks for providing the clearest example for why we need to get out of there. Instead of wasting our time with meaningless quotes, please look up some genuine facts, like the fact that our “intelligence” regarding WMDs - and our entire justification for starting the war - was based on the word of one disgruntled Iraqi employee code-named “curveball”. How about the fact that either our president was too stupid to realize that our intelligence was more faulty than schoolyard hearsay or was trying to mislead (or worse yet, lie) his way into Iraq. Do you want to endlessly stay in a war we should never have entered? Do you want to continue spending $10 billion a month healing our maimed or dressing the coffins of dead mothers, sons, brothers, sisters and fathers who’ve been lost to a war we should never have gotten into in the first place?
Lastly, there’s the usual “blah, blah, blah” about how I’m not really a Christian, Obama’s not really a Christian, and basically no one other than Jerry Falwell, Pat Roberts and James Dobson are Christians because - GASP - we’re tired of being lied to about Roe v. Wade. For the eleven millionth time, Obama is not pro-abortion, and he’s against gay marriage. Where do you get your information from? Everything you said here falls because of the fact that you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about regarding Obama’s positions. In fact, your rant is pretty much completely devoid of any single, meaningful fact. Your post basically rings of the conjectural ramblings of a disgruntled right-wing sycophant (sorry, just calling it like you’ve shown it). Other than reciting baseless quotes (I guess to make yourself feel smart) all you’re doing is rehashing talking points from the right-wing pundits who are lying out of their teeth. All of what you’ve said I’ve either categorically laid to rest in this article, in the comment stream to this article, or in other articles on this blog. Matt, please, go get some genuine knowledge and stop spouting off all those quotes from the backs of Starbucks cups.
Gabe - you said my post was “inaccurate on many levels” but then you just listed an “abortion justification” as the only level. Your subsequent discussion reveals that you missed the point of my “abortion” discussion. Where in my article did you get the idea that I was advocating abortions because people can’t afford children? Your statement is the exact opposite of what I said and I hope you’ll re-read the article for a better understanding, because the one you walked away with was waaayyy off.
And Obama’s campaign did not “viciously attack[] Palin’s kids”, Unless you think that news organizations are on Obama’s payroll. Nor did Obama “go after Joe the Plummer (sic)” (who, by the way, isn’t a real person - did you know that?) Again, “Joe the Plumber” was vetted by the media because McCain’s campaign failed to vet him before it thrust him into the national spotlight. But hey, if all you can do when you find out that Sam Wurzelbacher is a liar who (1) doesn’t have nearly enough money to buy his bosses business; (2) doesn’t have a business plan; (3) is not licensed to work as a plumber and has never been an apprentice - which means he’s illegally working as a plumber; (4) owes nearly $1,200 in back taxes (because tax-dodging is the American way, right?); (5) has no fear of being subject to any tax increase under Obama’s plan and will actually benefit by it; and (6) wouldn’t even be subject to Obama’s taxes if he did buy the business - is to say that someone “went after” him, I guess you’re too busy being “hypnotized by” Sarah Palin to see the wool she’s pulling over your eyes.
Obama hasn’t lied about campaign financing or his voting record. Please go to factcheck.org and stop relying on Fox News and its reject protégé “news organizations” and right-wing blog also-rans for information. Everything you’ve said here proves that you’ve allowed yourself to be added to the Rush Limbaugh Laundromat’s automatic spin-cycle. Part of the object of my post was to get Christians to finally start thinking outside the box and to wake up and see that the GOP is lying to us to get our votes while they spread hatred and divisiveness and never carry through on promises. I pray that you will eventually do some critical thinking on these issues. You can start by rereading my article objectively, so you won’t walk away from it with any preconceived ideas about where I was going - like you did with that “abortion justification” thing.
Vicki - thank you for your comment! And to answer your question, no, Obama is not “pro-abortion.” He does support abortion in life-threatening situations and he otherwise acknowledges the legal precedent spawned by Roe, which makes many people, including Planned Parenthood, count him in the “pro-choice” column. But that’s not the case. He acknowledges Roe because he knows it will never be overturned. In 2006, our current Supreme Court, which has a conservative majority, declined to hear a case brought by the original plaintiff in Roe, who was seeking to have Roe vacated. The Court had the perfect opportunity. The original Roe Plantiff was seeking to overturn her own decision, but the conservative Court threw her case out.
Roe is not going anywhere, so Obama acknowledges Roe. His plan is refreshing, though, because he wants to circumvent Roe by addressing the socio-economic, psychological and educational factors that lead people to seek abortions in the first place. In other words, Obama plans to fight abortion at its root and provide the types of reformative polices that will hopefully lead to fewer people seeking abortions. The goal is to protect life, not to focus on a legal decision. Obama’s plan will hopefully decrease the incidence of unwanted pregnancies and raise the socio-economic status of people who would otherwise seek abortions because they could not afford children. This is an outside-the-box way of addressing the abortion problem. I hope this has helped, and please feel free to ask any other questions you may have. You can respond here or go to my Contact page for my email address.
Good post, Rob. More telling is the way you respond to those who agree and especially those who do not. I cannot believe the past 10 or so years is the best we can do regarding the abortion issue. I have discussed this elsewhere with friends and wonder how many actually involve themselves in which ever issues they purport to have their candidate take the point on. Talk is cheap and electing someone and not doing anything else, I’m afraid, is likely very common. Regarding methods of making unwanted pregnancies less likely to happen; the GOP platform is wed (pun mostly intended) to an abstinence-only approach. There are studies that indicate this is not as effective as those who support it would like to think. Also, I would rather deal with the fallout of being misunderstood about a little broader “sexuality education” that provides age-appropriate birth control and deal with that, then deal with the fallout of wishful thinking and have more unplanned pregnancies (and more abortions) as a result. This is only one example where I can attempt to find common ground with Obama and get on with it. Blessings
I think you bring up some good points. At first I read your blog because I was not sure how an evangelical Christian could be voting for Obama but I think I now understand. So thank you. I read that you are concerned about providing aid, medical care and educations to the poor. I too believe that as Christians these are things that we should care about. After all these are things that Jesus cares about too. In fact isn’t Christ likeness the very thing we should be striving towards as a Christian?
You quoted John 13:34-35 (the new commandment that we love one another) so what is the love that Jesus was talking about?
1 Corinthians 13: 4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
We as Christians are further instructed :
Mathew 25 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Roman 13:9For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself
I believe that primary purpose of government is to provide the frame work for our nation “Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness” and it is up to the church (Christians) to provide the care for people.
I think that President Lincoln said it well in his second inaugural address when he said, “With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation’s wounds.”
By God’s grace I pray we will see the right. As Christians need to be sure that we are doing the work of caring for those in need not just pointing out how our government is failing us. Because ultimately won’t we all be judged alone for what we did or did not do?
We also need to be careful that we are not putting too much faith in things that will pass away. One day our government will be gone, our money and things will be gone but our souls will live one forever. Who will we serve?
Mathew 19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, 23 but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! 24 “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.
I also think that we have to be careful as Christians that we do not pick and choose what part of God’s word we will follow. For just as we are commanded to care for those in need we are also commanded to not murder.
Both John McCain and Barack Obama were asked did they know when life begins. Obama stumble a bit then answered he did not know, that the answer was above his pay grade. McCain simply answered that it begins at conceptions. Since the Bible is the final authority, McCain is on the right track.
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
Psalm 139: 13 For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb. 14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. 15 My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
I am concerned that in the days when the world tells us that there is no absolute truth that we in the Church fail to rise up and take a stand and say that there is absolute truth and that truth can be found in God’s word. We as the church need to hold all of our leaders to a higher standard. We should not settle for a choice between caring for the poor and the lives of our future generations.
I plead with you, do not be so disillusioned with failed Christians that you view the sanctity of live as merely rhetoric.
I know who I will be voting for and am not sure if my candidate will win. What I do know for sure, I will be praying for whoever ends up being elected. I will specifically pray that he will honor his vow to preserve, protect and defend the constitution of the United Stated of American and further preserve, protect and defend all of her citizens (even the unborn). I ask that all my brother and sisters in Christ join me in that prayer.
Gabe - let me say this to you abortion is irrelevant. As Christians I don’t understand the fascination with abortion, when the US has killed innocent people all over the world for money, when we allow people in this country to carry guns, why there is very little Christian outrage to genocide around the world. If you are a republican or support the ideals supporting the NRA and being prolife is an paradox. This country has NEVER I repeat NEVER had Christian values. Because first of all economically Christ is a socialist, Christianity is a doctrine of peace at all cost no war is ever justified, while there were wars in the scripture, if you look at Jesus you see the dispensation of Grace/Church, where it is our mandate to be peace, love, humility, meekness, kind, patient, forgiving, hopeful. The goal of Christianity is to spread the Gospel of Christ which is love at all cost. And to be honest with you your political affiliation is pointless. Now having said that Obama and McCain you say Obama has viciously attacked Palin’s kids yet Palin who is a Chirstian, questions whether someone else is saved or not, which also is not Christian like, McCain has called a pastor a racist questioning his faith and his calling attacking that pastor and his family. You have a pastor Rev. Arnold Conrad who prays a prayer saying that God’s reputation is involved in this election saying that people all around the world are praying to their god, whether they be hindu, muslim, buddist, etc. He goes on to say that if Obama wins their god is going to be bigger than you God. Now this is what is coming out of the evangelical movement. Gabe if you are a Christian and cannot see this as anti Christ and see how misguided your view of what is anti Christ really is. Again the evangelical movement attacks the muslim faith. I have heard Rod Parsely and John Hagee both severely condemn the islamic faith. This is what anti-Christian really is, Romans 10:9 says if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord you are saved. It does not say you have to be Christian to be saved. There are many muslim in the world who practice Islam but believe in their heart and have confessed with their mouth that Jesus is Lord. So what are we to tell them when people who call themselves Christian if faith but behave in hate, anger, and malice toward a faith not showing Christ but showing contempt. What are they to think? I hope the see that it is not Christ and they see us a human. Stop making this election about faith because all of us fall short of God’s righteousness and holiness. If you want to be an active Christian, be passionate about spreading love, be passionate about understanding what Jesus is saying to you specifically and be passionate about prayer.
Wendy Dolan - great response, but again as Christians I really don’t understand the fascination with abortion, yet we don’t care about war or genocide. It is legal to kill people in self defense, yet Jesus says turn the other cheek, it is legal to divorce, yet Jesus says forgive 70 times 7 times. I agree that all life is precious, but I don’t think that making abortion legal or illegal will stop abortions. What stops it is talking real to our children about sex, fornication, abstenance. Explaining to kids that sex has a spiritual implication and taking on the nature and the spirits of someone you are not married to allows Satan to plant imps that lay dormant and can cause sin nature to affect a future marriage or a future child. The reason abortion is even an issue is because the Christian church refuses to talk frankly about all the issues of sex. While there are some churches that have program, the problem is still the same. Also right now there are millions of children in the foster care system, and Christian families are under represented in filing for adoption. There is a greater percentage of gay couples adopting children than christian married couples adopting. Yet instead of focusing on the love aspect of the issue in preventing teen pregnancy and adopting unwanted children, Christians are focused on the condemnation aspect of the issue focusing on changing the law. Be careful because we really are starting to look like Pharisees. As for your absolute truth arguement, I will only say this, the purpose of the Bible is Relationship. It is not a historical account, it is not a geographical text book, it is not even a law book(while it speaks about the law it only does it in the context of God’s relationship with his people). The Bible is the Word of God and God wants all people to be in a right releationship with Him. He does not want just Jews, Christians, Muslims, black, white, red, the earth etc. He wants to restore our relationship with Him where sin and disobedience are no more. That is the absolute truth. Nothing else matters. That is why the beatitudes should be Christians way of life. The whole absolute truth issue is strange to me because God has clearly left many things out on purpose for us. Think about it God mentions the great tribulation, the millenium reign, the new city, the new earth, and the new heaven, but God is extremely vague. That is on purpose he wants us to hope, but remember God will judge the earth and no one knows what that means, if they say they do they only have a glimpse because none of us knows the mind of Christ.
I will give this last example and I will stop. As much as I have heard this condemnation of Islam, we must remember that Allah and God are the same God. The God of Abraham is the God of the Islamic faith. God blessed Ishmael as well as Isaac. But it was Abraham and Sarah’s sin that brought about the different denomination. So if Allah and God are the same God, what is true. Well God purposely sent Jesus for both of the denominations and for the rest of us. Stop listening to these preachers and pray and study the word for yourself. Because the only absolute truth is Romans 10:9, John 3:16. God wants right relationship with his creation.
This is in response to “D”’s response.
One of the greatest misconceptions that I am finally finding freedom from, and that “D” imposes in your response, is the putting of inaccurate words in God’s mouth. In your “bottom line” you articulate some sort of guilt we are supposed to feel at the pearly gates, if we voted in a certain way, when we stand before the Lord. If (on judgment day) God is to condemn a believer for voting a certain way, Christ and the cross is completely LOST! We sometimes like to think that God will stand before us and question different aspects of our human life, forgetting that the guilt and bondage from any decision was destroyed through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Guilt is not of the Lord and whether it is ultimately “wrong” or “right” to vote for a particular candidate, I live in the freedom and hope in a God that does not look at me and call me guilty, but says that I am “beyond accusation” (Piper). Don’t put word’s in the Creator of the Universe’s mouth that take away from the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ that we should live in.
Rob,
Good grief! Sounds like a little bit of old-fashioned animosity towards people who are better off than you by way of worldly possessions. Surprising response from a level-headed Christian. So I’ll simply respond, in my opinion, to your response, paragraph by paragraph…
You are way off by saying that McCain’s plan is to give the rich all the money they can dream of. What does that even mean? Talk about baseless ranting. The FACT is, (you research it, I already have) people spend more money when they are taxed less. People invest and trade more when they are taxed less. This is so simple its stupid. Impose a 10% tax increase on Microsoft and their product prices will increase roughly 10% to offset the cost. That price increase will cause consumers to buy less Ipods. This causes demand to drop. Once demand drops, Microsoft will start producing less Ipods. The fewer Ipods being produced, the less Microsoft is paying in taxes. Why? When you cut production, you cut equipment, raw materials, PEOPLE, etc. The more they decrease their capacities, the less they are paying in taxes OVERALL. In addition, the fewer Ipods being bought in stores causes an OVERALL reduction in the amount of sales tax that the gov’t gets from Ipods. All because you feel better when big corporations are taxed more. It really is cut and dry economics and it really does work that way. Obama has also stated that he will increase capital gains tax. Clinton increased it to 28%. What happened, all the rich people stopped buying and selling and trading because they didn’t want to take the hit. Duh! In turn, this slowed the economy. Rob, our economy prospers when people spend money, when ANYONE is taxed more; they spend, invest, trade, and save less! Higher taxes just are not the answer! There’s a hundred years of evidence to prove this.
*****Rob, I need to break real quick and explain something. Let me be clear that I am not intending to show my support for McCain/Palin by disagreeing with certain things about Obama. Honestly, Mike Huckabee was my choice! Probably the most moral and ethical man that has run for President in a while. Anyway, just thought you should know that I am not an avid McCain supporter since the emotion in your response leads me to believe that you have some built up anger inside and you are taking what I think is an excellent issue that you have brought up for discussion, and making it personal. Maybe you should read your own response again.
Back to taxes: So in the end, I say let Google’s CEO buy a new jet. If they are keeping their products affordable, creating jobs, and being honest about their business dealings, why not? Just because you have a personal vendetta against someone who has struck it big and can buy a jet. That’s what the American dream is all about! Smile Rob, and enjoy the freedom!
The Communist Manifesto paragraph: I don’t even know how to respond to this garbage. Rob, you are going in circles here and confusing my simple, backwoods brain. You say that you should accuse me and McCain of trying to usher in Communism? I want less gov’t. The purpose of the quotes about democracy is to warn people that we are headed in a direction of more and bigger gov’t. This is what Communism is! Gov’t control. You want the gov’t to provide for the needy, tax rich people, provide health care, etc. This means more gov’t control, not less! And stop whining about how all the rich people got to where they are by climbing on your back! That is 100% pure unsupported ranting and does nothing to aid your otherwise very articulate article.
Let’s talk about TANF. My wife is the HUD/Section 8 Manager and an apartment complex. HUD/Section 8 are regulated by TANF. Here are the facts, and I know them because I have the TANF legal documents and policies in front of me. The residents at the apartment complex who qualify for TANF have their benefits cut if they get a job. The residents are required, by law, to report any income. They don’t pay for rent, or utilities as long as they are NOT WORKING. If they have another child, their benefits increase. Rob, please take the time to think objectively about this with me. PLEASE. They qualify for HUD/Section 8/TANF because they cannot provide for their family, for whatever reason, so they have another child and we give them more money. Recap, they have 1 child, can’t provide for that child, get tax-payer assistance to provide for that child, then they have a second child. Is that responsible? Also, if they obtain a job and report it as required by law, they loose their free gifts from the gov’t. What world do you live in that you can argue against the idea that this does not give them an incentive to either get a job, or report that job if they do get one! That’s where your tax dollars are being wasted my friend. Some of these people have college degrees. It’s just easier not to work! I don’t blame them for that, I agree with it. But I don’t agree with enabling it. Gosh, I am such a right wing wack job! I’m sure Google is hiring, maybe you could make a call for these people.
The WAR: This is always a big one. Look, I spent eight years in the military, have been out for two. I am a 60% disabled vet and I won’t bore you with a list of my injuries, where I served, or my medals. I BELIEVE THAT WE NEED TO END THE WAR IN IRAQ! I hope that was clear enough for you Rob. I am not a supporter of this war. That being said…. When you and Michael Moore rant and rave about the mis-intelligence about WMDs it reminds me of a trial that I had jury duty for. I will let you make the connection between the two…
I pulled jury duty for a weapons/controlled substance felony case. FACTS: A convicted felon was pulled over for a traffic violation. The officer searched the car, and found two AK-47s, 2,000 rounds of ammo, and $250,000 worth of heroin in the trunk. I thought it was an easy case. It was, just not the way I imagined. The guns, ammo, and drugs were deemed inadmissible as evidence because it was found that the officer did not have probable cause to search the trunk. Well, in a weapons/drug case where the weapons/drugs don’t “legally” exist, there is not enough evidence to prosecute.
Now let me ask you Rob, does the fact that the officer searched the car illegally have anything to do with the FACT that the man DID have guns/drugs in the car? The guy had this stuff in his car, already had one felony, and he got off clean.
My point is that just because the WMDs weren’t there in Iraq, does that detract from the FACT that Sadaam was a purely evil man who had slaughtered tens of thousands of his own people? If you align your views with Michael Moore’s by saying we didn’t have the right to invade Iraq, then what you are saying is that what Sadaam was doing is OK. Coming from someone who speaks so passionately about helping the weak, it is surprising that you have forgotten the DECADES that Sadaam spent gassing his own countrymen. But since there weren’t WMDs, we should have let him keep going.
The usual “blah, blah, blah”…. Rob, I never said you weren’t a Christian, I never said Obama wasn’t a Christian. I would absolutely never question someone’s faith unless there was evidence to support it. You keep screaming that Obama is not Pro-Choice. I heard one of his campaign speeches in which he said, and I QUOTE, “If my daughter makes a mistake, I don’t want her punished with a baby”. If that isn’t pro-choice irresponsibility, I don’t know what is. Also, I never even mentioned the names Falwell, Roberts, or Dobson. What’s your point? I don’t listen to those people and I probably never will. I do listen to Billy Graham! I guess you will find a way to lump him in to you bucket of evil Christians, why not?
Lastly, I feel a lot of sheer anger from your response with the name calling, accusing me of being racist, and so on, and so on. Grow up and read; not to read but to understand. And my quotes? Yes, please cut on those. They were only written by the people that built this country and designed it around our crazy traditional Christian beliefs. John Adams, Benjamin Franklin? Yep, let’s ignore those meaningless souls, we are smarter aren’t we? Also, your article throws out more Bible verses than I have ever seen. Let me explain the Theological problem with this to all of your readers…. I can justify anything with a Bible verse. Murder, homosexuality, taxation, non-taxation, war, and peace alike. Be careful of loosely using the Bible to justify your beliefs. The Bible is meant to guide you actions and beliefs, NOT to justify them. Using the Bible in reverse doesn’t work! I want to justify the idea that homosexuals should all die, I can recite the Sodom and Gomorrah. If I want to justify that homosexual behavior is perfectly fine, I just casually through out a few verses about how God loves all his children, etc. Rob, you have used the Bible to justify your beliefs. It may fool some of your readers, but not all.
I am sure you will hatefully respond because that is what you do. I am letting you know that I anticipate reading an educated, supported response and not some emotional outburst.
****Please excuse the typos, didn’t have time to proofread! SORRY.
Wendy Dolan - thank you for your careful, fruitful reply. You clearly displayed, more than any of the others on this site who have disagreed with me, that you’re disagreement is from a genuinely Christian perspective, rather than from a politicized religious perspective. I can definitely respect that, but still I must disagree with your assessment.
I am not “so disillusioned with failed Christians that [I]view the sanctity of life as merely rhetoric.” Rather, I am fed up with charlatans who parade around as people who share Christian values and reduce the sanctity of life to mere political rhetoric. My disillusionment is with those who use the precious life of unborn children as tools to coerce well-meaning Christians into voting for them. The Republicans’ continued focus on the failed policy of overturning Roe, while simultaneously advancing policies that harm poor children and their parents, shows that they really could care less about the sanctity of life - both in and out of the womb - unless those lives form a voting bloc that can contribute to their campaigns. Please read my responses above yours for an examination of why Roe is a Republican smokescreen.
I also have to take issue with your assessment of Obama’s “above my paygrade” response. What happens when quotes get taken out of context is that the meaning becomes lost and twisted. Obama has made abundantly clear during this campaign that he values all life. In fact, He never said during the conversation from which you pulled that quote that he “did not know” when life began. He said that the answer to that question could not be determined by man, but that it had already been determined by someone “above his paygrade”. He was referring to the fact that God alone is in a position to determine when life begins and that God had already answered the question. But that meaning gets lost in translation when we cut and paste quotes. I encourage you to reexamine Obama’s stance on this issue without the gloss that right-wing, agenda-based media has put on it.
Now, about charity being something that Christians should do but that the Government has no business doing, I ask you this question, prefaced by the following statement - Kim Jung Il, North Korea’s leader, rules over a population so devastatingly poor that its citizens live in a perpetual state of malnourishment. He lives in opulence while his people suffer agonizing poverty and lack of the basic human rights and decencies that we take for granted as Americans. Now for the question - do you think God smiles down on Kim Jung Il for ignoring the needs of his citizens? Do you honestly feel that God does not want those who lead over us to exhibit Christ’s example by caring for us? Do you disagree with child labor laws, child pornography laws, social security, Medicaid, public school, etc.? All these programs are ways for the government to look after people. Sure, governments pass away, so do people and even church congregations. That’s not the issue. The issue is what do governments, people and churches do while they’re here. If either abdicates it’s responsibility to care for the needy, it has abdicated a duty to God. Christ did not counsel to “render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s” out of an expectation that Caesar would reciprocate with manifest indifference to the needs of those from whom he was assessing a tax.
I respectfully think you are misguided in your political points and in your religio-economic points, but I still appreciate your response. Thanks.
Rob, by the way, concerning health care costs for illegals: “In California - the eppicenter of illegals - 64 hospitals and emergency rooms were closed because of the costs of caring for illegal immigrants, he said.” “…CIS estimates that their presence costs the government and average of $2,735 for each household annually, or $10.4 billion.” (Gillentine, Amy. April 14, 2006. Colorado Springs Business Journal.
Thanks for playing Rob, try again soon. $10.4 BILLION per year. How much did the CEO of Googls’s jet cost? Yep, we should just ignore this problem. The CITIZENS of this country could use 10 billion extra a year, don’t you think? Let’s take it back and distribute this money to lower income AMERICAN families. What a crazy idea that is!
Our country does not have a great health care system, but it is better than anywhere else. Rob, go live in England, get your free, gov’t-run health care. When you get the flu, imagine waiting 4 weeks for an appointment. If you need surgery, enjoy the pain for about 1 1/2 months before they can squeeze you in. That’s reality. You don’t know the facts Rob. Your rhetoric is getting flat-out boring. America has the most efficient run health care in the world, period, stop wasting my time. Next.
Matt – you came back?? Welcome! So now I have to reread my response, which I typed out at 1 or so in the morning…okay, yeah, that was a little angry and I could have been more beneficent. For my tone, I apologize. The substance of my post was on the-mark given your initial response to my article, but my tone could have been better.
Now, for your second response. I note initially that your response to my article, as expressed in both of your posts, basically reflects disagreement on economic and taxation policy grounds. While I am happy to engage you in a debate on the candidates’ tax platforms, the purpose of this article was to present the case for why Obama’s faith should not be a stumbling block for Christians who would otherwise vote for him. I therefore invite you to read and comment on my Obama: Economy article or my Obama: Healthcare article, as those platforms seem to be the ones you take the most issue with.
Now, briefly (yeah right) commenting on your overall responses, it appears you adhere to general conservative economic thought that has shaped the Republican Party platform for decades: trickle-down economics, free market philosophy, minimal government interference in the market. We could argue about this all year and reach a stalemate because I doubt either of us will change our economic philosophies. I will, however, pull another of your quotes – “People invest and trade more when they are taxed less.” That is indeed quite true. Which is why Obama will give a tax cut to 95% of working Americans, and which is also why 98% of small businesses will not see a tax increase under Obama’s plan. For those businesses and people that do see a tax increase under Obama’s plan, that increase will be back to the levels that existed when Clinton was President (a max 39.6% tax rate). Under Clinton, we saw relatively low inflation, strong economic growth, low jobless rates, good corporate investment trends, and confident consumption indicators, all signs that Clinton’s tax policies did not bring about the doom-and-gloom that republicans have yelled about for so long.
Contrast that with the past eight years. Deregulation and insufficient oversight (along with, admittedly, some home purchasers who should have been better stewards of their money) helped bring about one of the biggest housing market collapses in modern history and triggered what may be the biggest economic collapse since the Great Depression. I am not contending that Republican-backed deregulation in the financial sector is the only cause, but I’m comforted in knowing that noted deregulation leaning economists like Alan Greenspan have come to realize that their deregulation-centric philosophy was flawed and was a substantially contributing factor.
While tax policies that favor the wealthy and corporate class may succeed in spurring research and investment, that extra money has never trickled down to the working class. Further, regressive tax policies that benefit the wealthy at the expense of the working class do not spark consumption because society’s biggest consumers (the working and middle class) are being disproportionately taxed on the money they would otherwise have used for consumption. It is telling that our two biggest recent recessions occurred under the fiscal policies of Republican presidents (both Bush’s, as it were). And I know this one isn’t officially a recession, but the writing’s on the wall. It is also telling that, again, small business and big business both thrived during the Clinton years, and so did consumer consumption, investment…and even Microsoft.
Now, to your quotes, you attributed them well, so you need not remind me of their sources. I am not attacking our founding fathers, I am pointing out that your quotes were out of place and, in my view, did nothing to advance your argument. Let’s leave it at that. And my Bible points were not to justify my point. They were to expose the falsity of the Republican adherence to Biblical values.
Iraq: I don’t like Michael Moore (does that surprise you?) so I don’t even know what his views are on Iraq and I certainly haven’t adopted them. And while I understand that Saddam was a madman and a ruthless dictator, that fact hasn’t changed since 1990, and it wasn’t a good enough reason for us to invade a sovereign nation then either. Of course I abhor Saddam’s regime, but that doesn’t mean I advocate our military overthrowing it. There are plenty of other ruthless dictators (Kim Jung Il among them), but I don’t want us to become militarily involved with all of them. The fact is that our justifications for invading Iraq had nothing to do with Saddam’s ruthlessness; rather, the justifications were (1) that he could directly harm U.S. interests by developing WMDs, and (2) that he had an alliance with Osama bin Laden – which Osama could use to purchase WMDs that could be used against us. Both of those justifications were patently false and the blood is on the Bush administration for failing to even do the rudimentary detective work it would have taken to find out that they were false. You don’t put over a hundred thousand lives on the line based on the uncorroborated word of a recently fired factory worker and some faulty, stereotypical and unintelligent generalizations that amount to saying all Arabs must be friends. Analysts who actually knew what they were talking about had already established that Osama and Saddam were enemies. The Bush administration’s justifications were false and we should never have been there.
Welfare: You and I are going to have respectfully disagree on this one. I followed the transformation of AFDC into TANF and, where I live, when the switch came many AFDC recipients were told “you’ve got two years and you’re out.” End of story. The only continuous “welfare” where I live is in the form of WIC payments, Medicare, and housing subsidies for the disabled – but not perpetual housing for unemployed mothers.
Communist manifesto: Perhaps that portion was a bit garbled because I was half sleep when I typed it, but the gist is that you often expressed a sense of fear that progressive tax policies would bring about class warfare and end democracy as we know it. My point was that Marx spoke of a different catalyst for class warfare – a revolt from the overtaxed and overworked proletariat against the ruling bourgeoisie class. Tax “cuts” that give the average low-income worker $21 while giving those among the top an average of $290,000 might bring about that kind of discord. My point was that the class warfare you fear might be actualized by the tax policies you promote. All of this is obviously in the hypothetical and extreme cases (as were your examples – I was meeting an extreme example with a comparatively extreme counter-example).
Okay, this has gone long enough. Thanks again for coming back.
Matt – wow, back again! Thanks for playing. You seem to be getting quite testy here. Anyway, your argument about citizens and immigrants loops around and distorts your other arguments, but whatever. And you’re flat-out wrong on Obama’s healthcare plan – the comparison to England, the implicit idea that we’re talking about “nationalized” healthcare – none of this stuff is justified. Read one of my comments above, I think in response to Brock, where I talk about Obama’s healthcare plan. You can also read my Obama: Healthcare article. Or not…I “don’t know the facts” anyway, right? Sorry for wasting your time
Rob,
I am bowing out of this blog becuase there is point in wasting my time with close-minded people who just don’t have the common sense to comprehend things. Before I go. Let me remind EVERYONE OF ONE SIMPLE THOUGHT!….
Rob has condemmed the Falwells, Dobsons, etc. for using religious beliefs to sway political views over and over and over. However, what you all have failed to notice is that Rob has used religious beliefs to sway political views. Gee, it almost sounds like I said that twice.
I you read my posts, I argued politics, NOT religion. Why? Because religion is about YOUR faith, and nothing else. The weirdo right-wingers are using religion to sway voters for McCain, and Rob is using religion to sway voters for Obama. I just really don’t see a whole lot of difference though.
I will give Rob credit though. He is good. For a minute, he had me feeling like I had been trampled on just like he has his whole life. Then I realized I had been caught up in a religious battle on the other side. You see, I don’t quote bible verses in my political opinions. Rob has been whining about the right-wing doing this yet he is doing it himself. If you need evidence, scroll to the top of the sceen.
Rob, you need to take a step back and read the things that you have writted. You have used religion to defend your political views, and quite successfully! Good job! Doesn’t make it right though. You have essentially said that you can’t be a true Christian and vote for McCain. But your not judging anyone! Rob, you have turned into the same people you have condemmed, your just playing for another team.
The problem with hypocrites is that 100% of time, they don’t know they are being hypocritical.
Keep your religion Rob, and argue your politics. You are very good at that, and I mean it. You, of all people do not need to drag religion into a political arguement. Make your religious convictions and make them your own. I wish you the best!
Frank Richard – your views are indeed radical, and your position that abortion is a non-issue that should be legalized will probably draw you more scorn than I have received. When I read your response about the economy and Matrix-like system whereby American workers are lulled into complicity with a system designed to keep them downtrodden, I couldn’t help but think of the song that goes: “You load 16 tons and what do you get; another day older and deeper in debt…”
On your response to Wendy Dolan – “The reason abortion is even an issue is because the Christian church refuses to talk frankly about all the issues of sex.” – Amen to that.
I don’t agree with all that you’ve said, but thanks for sharing your opinion!
Thank you for so eloquently articulating our real mandate for being Christians - to love one another as we do our brothers. I am a Christian and a Democrat and have felt for years that the Republican Party has missed the boat on what Christians truly stand for. In this respect I can’t think of any element of the GOP’s social platform that I support, and as for believing in smaller government and spending cuts, the Bush Administration didn’t just miss the boat - they never even bought a ticket. In short, I have never supported the party that, to me, says it stands for “life” but whose leader (the President) instigates a war in which thousands have needlessly died. On the other hand, it is possible for us to have a President who is a Christian and stands for people’s rights. Right now, this is Obama.
Now Matt’s gone?! And I’d finally found a commenter to engage me in some spirited debate on this issue, rather than take an anonymous jab at me and then run away. Nevertheless, I guess I have to address his last post in absentia for anyone else who may feel the way Matt does. I could take offense to Matt saying that I’m “closed minded” and “don’t have…common sense”, but I’ve been called worse (See Rick, above). Besides, anyone who reads my post and catches my point knows that I was trying to open people’s minds, not be closed minded. And the fact that I engaged Matt (and took so much space to do it, jeez!) indicates that I was keeping an open mind. If trying to open minds and free fellow Christians from the bondage of the Republican Party’s platform of lies, misrepresentations and distortions makes me guilty of “playing for another team”, then I gladly plead guilty. But I digress…
As I said in my article, Christians have politicized religion, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. No other group is called upon to check their foundational beliefs at the door when they go to the voting booth or when they engage discourse about who to support. Why on Earth should Christians – or any religious group for that matter – be required, or even called upon, to abandon part of what makes them just to suit someone else’s notion that there should be a separation of religion from political discourse among private citizens? My Christianity informs my worldview and my political ideology, so I will intermingle my political and religious views when I please and make no apologies for it. I would expect nothing less of other Christians or from anyone else.
Now, onto the assumption that I work for WorldNetDaily (“You cannot be a true Christian if…”). The statement reflects that Matt failed to grasp a fundamental understanding of what I was saying. I am not calling into question the Christianity of anyone voting for McCain. Christ gave each of us the intellectual capacity to think for ourselves. I would not call a Christian otherwise for reaching a different conclusion than I have. I am merely admonishing Christians to actually think for ourselves (2 Tim 2:15). The point of my article is that Christians do ourselves a disservice if we cast a “single-issue” vote for McCain when McCain’s “single-issue” platform is a farce and when he used that platform, and his running mate, to pander to our vote. My point is that Christians who vote for McCain for a single “value” need to realize that the GOP is effectively misrepresenting its position on that value while using our vote and usurping our character to practice the politics of hate and division, and that while Republicans preach about shared values, they practice values that are anathema to Christ’s commandment. I think most of my readers, as indicated by the comment stream, got that point.
And Matt, if you do come back, know that I will continue to argue my politics. I hope you come around for the discussions. Thanks for your compliments and well wishes.
Sorry Rob,
How do I do Christians a disservice by voting for McCain? If you are trying to say that if I vote for McCain SOLELY because he is pro-life, then I agree. Anyway, I’m really gone this time.
Thank you for the debates! Personally Rob, I prefer the person who disagrees with me and stands and defends those disagreements, then someone who agrees with me but can’t explain why! I am for McCain in this election, not just because he is pro-life. You and I see things different and that is the absoulute best part about this country. Not to go into details, but I have had my freedoms stripped away for a period of time, and once you have lived without freedoms, you wake up every day and thank the good Lord that you have them. You also are thankfull that others have them, even though their views are a little skewed.(That was a joke)
Seriously Rob, thank you and you should look at being an Obama Staffer for his 2012 run. (which he’ll loose)
I am not a conservative in the least. While I don’t like the idea of abortion and hate that our society has a tragically unbalanced education system which leads to thousands of abortions a year, I fully believe in the full humanity of every human and I don’t believe that who you chose to love should effect who you are allowed to marry, or for that matter if you want to get ordained. The most important thing for me in this election is foreign policy, followed closely social concerns of equality both in this country and around the world.
That said, it may shock most of the people on here that I am a Christian, but i am. In fact I have a Masters of Divinity. I’ve worked and preached in churches. It may further shock most of you to find out that I grew up in a Southern Baptist Church in Oklahoma. Not surprisingly, I am not Southern Baptist anymore. I currently attend a Presbyterian Church in New Jersey.
I guess the biggest question I have for those who do not support Obama is: what happens if McCain dies? Would you really be proud to have Sarah Pain, who has no experience and no intelligence, as your President? Really?
Oh, why do I bother…these are the same people who voted for Bush, TWICE!!! ugh
Matt - you came back for the long goodbye, eh?
I seem to have earned your respect. Well, you had mine at (the second) hello. And you captured my qualification correctly re: voting for McCain “SOLELY because he is pro-life”. At the end of the day, I may not have swayed you to vote Obama, but perhaps we accomplished something more important in the long-term. In two people, we may have planted the seeds for reconciliation between the so-called “red states” and “blue states”, or more accurately, between people who have become so polarized during this long campaign and the presidency that preceded it. That’s a worthy cause.
Nice jab at the end, but since Obama will be an incumbent in 2012, his chances for reelection look quite good
Rob J –
Thank you for this article! I have been frustrated with the church as a whole these last few months when it comes to this presidential race and the opinions that come with it. I’ll be glad when it’s done and over with.
I am a Spirit filled Christian that was transformed by the power and love of Christ. My background is very different than you typical evangelical, by which I mean I wasn’t raised and brought up in the church. I was a very worldly person that did very worldly things. Thank the Lord that I was saved, forgiven, and changed by Grace.
I have come to find there is politics within the Body of Christ itself, on one side we have lawlessness and on the other side we have legalism. Both extremes are dangerous but my frustration with the church in this election cycle mainly comes from the “religious mindset” of the extreme right.
All too many times these individuals condemn the world by twisting the Word of God and proclaiming that it’s righteous judgment. This righteous judgment is for the church to judge itself, “…God alone sits in judgment on those who are outside”, i.e. the world. 1 Corinthians 5:13
Case in point, when it was reported that Sara Palin’s teenage daughter was pregnant out of wedlock, the Evangelical community rallied in support for Sara Palin and her daughter. I thought to myself…wow what compassion, what mercy and grace, what love the Body of Christ is showing. Now if only we can get the Body of Christ to have the same compassion, mercy, grace and love for the “outside” instead of condemning them, we can actually make some great progress and show the Love of Christ. 1 Timothy 2:3-4
Once again, the election boils down to the lesser or two evils. By far the lesser is John McCain. And I think the majority of us Fox people agreee. McCain the safer choice from a freedom standpoint, from a defense of America standpoint, (with rising scares in foreign countries). I find it insane that every debate, ever time I’ve heard Obama speak and answer questions he talks about how he will need to conduct “spending” to achieve some of his goals…yet America thinks we’re all going to get lots of money because he’s going to cut taxes and give credits?!?! How on earth can he service his agenda and do all that he promises for “global warming” “health care” “social security” and a lot of other issues with saving Americans a dollar or two? Do the majority of these folks voting for Obama really have the wool pulled over their eyes that much? What a shame! Do the math people! You can’t spend money and finance agendas with money the doesn’t exisit! It will come from you! Your “wealth” will be distributed to those who don’t work…and your boss’s wealth too, leaving you to become someone who doesn’t work… Figure it out!
Do the 10 Commandments say “Vote on Tax issues” or “Thou shalt not kill” I’m confused. Maybe most of you forgot. Maybe I did too.
The Letter “Kills”, the Word is Spirit.
Gabe
I would just like to point out that you can tell a tree by the fruit it bears. I do not watch Fox News because I will not be lead by the blind. I did not let any outside person news organization influence my decision has to who to vote for, I looked at the fruit. The fruit of John McCain, his campaign, and the GOP is fear, deception, division, accusation, suggestions, and hate. All of these tactics are not of God, in fact they are the very same tactics used by the great deceiver. God’s people are destroyed by a lack of knowledge, this is why we need to study the Word.
Justin - Did you honestly refer to yourself as one of the “Fox people”?! How sad. I guess people who, like you, allow themselves to be brainwashed by Fox News would “agree” about McCain based on the lies that that organization has spread about Obama. I am again reminded of the Matrix. Notwithstanding efforts to free people’s minds, some actually chose to stay in bondage to their robotic slavemasters.
Since you wonder how Obama will accomplish his plans without “redistributing wealth” (another sign you’ve allowed Sean Hannity to pull the wool over your eyes), perhaps you should try and figure out how McCain will raise the $5.1 trillion his tax proposals will cost the American people. Perhaps you should ask how McCain will raise the $300 billion of wealth he will “redistribute” to homeowners who cannot pay their mortgage. Perhaps you should ask how working class families who are struggling to make ends meet will raise the $12,000 per family it costs for healthcare when their employers drop them under McCain’s healthcare proposals.
In short, perhaps you should ask yourself real questions and stop wasting our time with your “Fox people” psycho-babble.
Jason R - Obama hasn’t killed anyone and his policy proposals regarding abortion will probably have the effect of decreasing abortion rates in this country. Perhaps if you looked that up instead of being beholden to the propogandized “pro-life” platform of the GOP, you’d realize this fact. Also, regarding the Ten Commandments, they also emplore us (1) not to bear false witness against our neighbor - The GOP is doing that by calling Obama a socialist Muslim terrorist, among other slanders; (2) not commit adultery - John McCain did that against his first wife when he cheated on her with and left her for Cindy McCain; (3) invoke the name of God in vain - the GOP does that whenever it calls on the name of God to swindle Christians out of a vote based on a “pro-life” platform that is as meaningless as their un-Godly campaign tactics are repugnant; and (4) not worship any idols before God - which is what people like you do when they worship at the alter of the GOP as though only it can protect this country from “abortionists”, terrorists, etc. Please go back to the drawing board on this one, read my article (which I suspect you did not really do last time), and open your mind.
Rob, if you were less intent on flouting your Christianity, and actually considered in depth what Obama’s position on abortion is, you might hesitate more. You are utterly deluded if you think Obama is “conciliatory” in his support for federal legislation that would preempt every state restriction on abortion, the only avenue to reduce abortion with the stranglehold the federal courts have put on the issue until recently. I can tell your priority is quality of life after birth, but mine will always be the protection of life starting in the womb. You might as well be saying you support the quality of life for slaves who escape their masters. And it’s why your argument may sour people on the Republican party in general, but they won’t be persuaded to pull the lever for the party that negates human rights at the their most crucial level.
Just a reminder that, Blackman, Burger, Powell, Brennan and Stewart were Republican appointed judges who voted in favor of Roe v, Wade in ‘73. Rehnquist was the only Republican on the bench who opposed the decision. When Planned Parenthood v. Casey reached the Court, there were 8 Republican-appointed judges on the bench. Throughout the 1950s, the Eisenhower years, the top marginal tax rate on income over $400,000 hovered at 91 percent. In the 1960s and 1970s, that top rate never dropped below 70 percent on income over $200,000. So, I guess Ike was a socialist too.
Oh and one more thing, McCain voted to approve both Stephen Breyers and Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
Thank you for your thought-provoking article. I agree with much of what you say. Love is truly the most important message of the Christian faith, and Republicans have done a poor job showing love. Helping the poor was a vital ministry of Jesus Christ, yet like you say, the GOP seems largely unconcerned with their plight. I am 100% in accord with you that the McCain/Palin ticket has been an embarrassment with their divisive, even hateful, rhetoric. Yet, I cannot, in good conscience, vote for Obama tomorrow because love is not the role of the government. That’s the Church’s role, even though we often fail miserably at it. The government’s role is to defend the rights and freedoms of its citizens. The government can and should make laws against murder (although, granted, not everyone believes abortion is murder). The government can also legalize contracts such as marriage (although, granted, not everyone agrees with the definition of marriage). In spite of differing opinions, these are still legitimate roles of the government. Helping the poor and providing health care for all, while extremely important and honorable goals, are not necessarily legitimate roles of the government. In fact, many of our founding fathers would argue against this point. (see Thomas Jefferson’s quote above for just one example).
First, the abortion issue. Is this a legitimate, even vital, government concern? You have stated in your replies to others that we are well beyond revoking Roe Vs. Wade in this country. Sadly, you may be right. But no matter how impossible it seems, we cannot simply give up. I feel as hopeless as you do that the Republicans will do anything to overturn this injustice. However, I believe that they are in a position to nominate pro-life justices to the Supreme Court, which can indeed make a difference. It is not completely far-fetched to think that abortion will be outlawed. We hope and pray in faith for this. Yes, people will still get abortions, but it will be illegal, and that difference is profound. Abortion is not a fundamental part of our economy as slavery was and has only been legal for less than half a century. Slavery was entrenched in our society for over 200 years and was an integral part several states’ economies. Yet those who believed that Africans were human beings whose rights should be defended by the government did not give up until the injustice was corrected. Those who believe unborn babies are human beings worthy of protection by the government should not for a minute turn their backs on the slightest opportunity to defend their right to life. So in my mind, the abortion issue is a fundamental concern.
Second, the gay marriage issue. Is this a legitimate, even vital concern of the government? People have gotten married without government sanction throughout history. It is basically a contract before God, which is what really matters, but since it is a legal contract as well, government involvement in the process is legitimate. The purpose of contracts is to make it difficult for each party to break their promise and thus, it is in keeping with the government’s role to defend the rights of its citizens by enforcing contracts. If people could break contracts with no legal consequence, obviously injustice would prevail. Furthermore, many marriage laws protect the rights of young citizens by establishing a minimum age for marriage. So will redefining marriage to include alternative lifestyles necessarily deny anyone of their rights? Perhaps not, but since God has clearly stated that homosexuality is immoral, and since it is a legitimate role of the government to be involved in the marriage contract, I cannot support a government that will sanction gay marriage (even though I myself am a practicing homosexual… I know I am wrong, and I have no desire to twist God’s Word so that I can continue sinning guilt-free).
Finally, regarding the economic issues. Yes, of course, the government should be involved in economics, but I believe, along with many or our founding fathers, that it should be less involved rather than more involved with the economy. You are right when you say that the Bible does not promote capitalism or socialism or any other ism, yet there are many verses dealing with money and labor and wages that make God’s view on these issues clear. God never gives anyone the right to wealth. He never defines a minimum standard of living. He never even says it is wrong for the rich to be rich or the poor to be poor. In fact there are many verses (look at Proverbs) that imply that it is better to be poor than rich. God seems to treat poverty as a fact of life in this corrupt world. Jesus said, “The poor will always be with you.” That’s not to justify it, or excuse it, but it’s the reality that exists. It is humankind’s job to help the poor, to “love your neighbor,” but that is not the government’s job. Helping the poor is not synonymous with defending the rights of its citizens, since no citizen has the inalienable right to wealth. The government can defend the poor and the powerless, it can promote justice and fairness, yet it cannot equalize everyone’s economic status. I have spent my life working with the poor (tutoring Hispanic immigrants, teaching in inner city schools, working with the street kids in Latin America, and volunteering in the Big Brother program), so I cannot be accused of being ignorant of or indifferent to their needs. I know they have very real needs, and we all need to reach out to them and help them. But I do not see where the Bible or the Constitution grant the government the power to try to end poverty.
I realize this reply has been rather lengthly, and I know it has probably not changed anyone’s mind, but I appreciate how your article has made me stop and ponder these things. My hope is that it shows your readers that McCain voters are thinking deeply about the issues as well. I respect those who are voting for Obama. I know you are sincere, pro-American, and many of you are better Christians than me. May the best man win tomorrow!
I am sorry but how in the world can you say that Barack Obama’s proposals do not sound like a socialist government? That’s not a lie, it’s actually not that hard to see. I don’t even watch Fox news. All I had to hear was Barack Obama’s tax solution in his discussion with Joe the Plumber and from there it’s evident that he is not advocating democratic proposals. That sort of proposal is giving him all the power over all your money. It is not going to help a single person in the long run and in fact probably will be detrimental to alot of people. Please just think through what these proposals are really going to do. They are not as perfect as they sound and they’re trying to take away your rights as an American citizen and make people dependant on the government.
David – Wow! Thank for giving me a passionate and thoughtful counterpoint to my view. You have touched on some important themes that I also grappled with for many years before finally coming to the conclusion I expressed in my article. I really value your input. While it differs from mine (in some respects, at least), I am grateful that there are thinking Christians on the other side of this issue as well.
Still, I must differ with some of your points. For starters, you mentioned (probably correctly) that our founders probably didn’t envision a government that was called to “love” its citizens. As true as that statement may be, our founders also did not envision a government that would allow African Americans to be considered human beings, or women (and African-Americans) to have the right to vote. The Constitution is thankfully, however, as some Supreme Court Justices have said, akin to a “living, breathing” document.
We can all thank God that, in some respects, the nation that exists today is not the nation that the founders envisioned. Our founders’ vision was of a God who sanctioned the inhumane treatment, ownership, rape and murder of an entire race of people. Our founders’ vision was of a God who objectified women and reduced them to porcelain dolls to be admired but to not have any voice or feelings. Even if the founders did not envision a country that answered God’s call to love, I am thankful that, given the other twisted views of God that our fathers glorified in our founding document, our present Republic does not reflect all the views of our founding fathers.
Your thoughtful response evinces that you read through my comment stream as well, so you know my next statement already. The government does not have to “love” us, but it does have to protect us. This is not only Biblical; if you study international relations theory, you’ll see that Europeans formed nation-states so that governments to could protect them in ways that they could not collectively protect themselves. I cannot imagine the God I serve being pleased with a government that ignored its poor, let its hungry starve and let the sick die without help. Again, do you think God is pleased with the regime of Kim Jung Il in North Korea? Do you think he was pleased with Saddam Hussein? You will never convince me that God wants countries to be unconcerned with the poor and the sick. Effectively, what you’re saying is that the Centers for Disease Control should not exist because it is not the government’s duty to find cures for diseases. You’re effectively saying that laws protecting children from unfair labor practices and sweatshops or from pornography should not exist because it is not up to the government to look after child welfare. You’re saying the government should not provide federal aid to care and faith-based agencies like the American Red Cross or the American Cancer Society (not to mention the March of Dimes), or local community organizations, or even financial aid to college students, because it is not the government’s job to care about its citizens. That is not the God I serve and I suspect that if you look at this more broadly, you’ll agree.
Now, regarding equating abortion with slavery, that is a good example, but it ultimately works counter to the way you intended. The movement against slavery began when Britain ended the international slave trade – not because of laws, but because Britain determined that slavery was barbaric. Catching that waive, Christians in the American north, together with other northern sympathizers, determined to wage a crusade that would change American minds toward slavery – to have Americans view slavery as barbaric and as inhumane. This was a campaign not to change laws, but to change minds. Harriet Tubman’s Underground Railroad was made possible in part by northerners who’d changed their mind about slavery. Yet, it was because slavery was so engrained in our society and was such an integral part of the southern economy that the final nail in slavery’s coffin had to be legislation and constitutional amendments (not to mention a war that cost hundreds of thousands of American lives).
The slavery example is both true and false for abortion. As with slavery, the only way to begin that grassroots movement to stop abortion is to change people’s minds, not their legal behavior. There are known factors that lead people to seek abortion: poverty, unsafe sex, premature sex, etc. If we attack these causes, like Obama plans to do, we attack the mindset (meaning the socio-economic and improper education, etc., factors) that leads people to seek abortions. In this respect, we can combat abortion like we combated slavery – through a campaign to change minds.
However, abortion differs from slavery in the sense that abortion is not engrained in and integral to our society. Laws were ultimately needed to end the slave trade because people genuinely had a view that Blacks were unworthy of being treated as anything other than property. There is no similarity in this regard with abortion. No one wants to abort babies. The pro-choice movement wants to preserve a woman’s right to make choices with her own body. While this is misguided, it is also misguided to think that Planned Parenthood wants to advocate the maximization and primacy of abortions. No sect (legitimate, at least) of America has a “pro-abortion” mindset in the manner that the South had a “pro-slavery” mindset. Thus, the legal component of what it took to end slavery is not necessary in the abortion context. Once you end the societal factors that lead people to feel it necessary to undertake a horrible procedure that – trust me – they’re not thrilled with taking, you marginalize and perhaps end abortion.
Even if you’re ultimately right that legal change may be the final nail in abortion’s coffin, like slavery and Jim Crow (and women’s suffrage), courts will only warm to those legal changes when society changes. Obama aims to change society, not to continue the antiquated (or perhaps premature, given your example) fixation on changing a legal precedent. The Republican platform has no analogue. It only wants to continue the push to end Roe without advocating the kinds of policy changes necessary to actually end abortion. I say it’s time to give someone with the right view of this thing a chance to try and change people’s minds so that, if necessary, society will be warmed to changing the law.
Now regarding gay marriage, you seem to be misinformed. Obama is against gay marriage. In fact, Obama and McCain have the same platform on gay marriage. A vote against Obama is not a vote against gay marriage, it is a vote based on the misperception that Obama’s for gay marriage. You should not vote based on misperceptions.
Your views on the economy double back to my initial point regarding the founders’ views of helping the poor and sick and how God would look at countries that abdicated their responsibilities to the less fortunate in our society, so I will not rehash them here.
Thanks again for posting a thoughtful reply and for conceding that I at least made you think things through. You accomplished the same.
Greg - *sigh* I can’t believe people come here accusing me of not thinking and then, in the next sentence, spout out something non-factual. Federal statutory law only preempts state laws that are less restrictive than the federal statute. If a state law is more restrictive than the federal statute, the state law prevails to the extent of the greater restriction. Now, when you’re dealing with constitutional law – which informed the Supreme Court’s decision in Roe v. Wade and subsequent jurisprudence (substantive right to privacy), neither a federal statute nor a state law can restrict our rights to the point of infringing our constitutional rights. When you put the two legal principles together, a federal statute does not preempt a state law that is more restrictive than the federal statute, so long as that state law is not so restrictive that it affects our constitutional rights. I say all that to point out why you’re wrong about whatever federal legislation you claim Obama supports. If federal law restricts the right of states to enact strict abortion laws, it is because of constitutional precedent, not because of any federal statute. Obama did not sit on the Supreme Court that decided Roe v. Wade, so your attempt to engage the fantasy that somehow Obama is stopping states from having strict abortion laws is flat out wrong. You’re either getting your information from a source that doesn’t know the fundamental interplay between state and federal law or from a source that intentionally wants you to be mislead about that interplay. I suggest you seek out some truth. I’ve given you a good start.
Kate – you say you don’t watch Fox News, but you sure sound like Hannity and O’Reilly right now. Do you study history? Are you familiar with FDR’s New Deal programs or even LBJ’s Great Society programs? Both were far more sweeping than anything Obama proposes and no one would say that America was socialist at the end of FDR’s or LBJ’s presidencies. Do you think that America was socialist at the end of Clinton’s presidency, because Obama’s tax policies will merely take the top tier back to what it was during the Clinton years? But perhaps most importantly, what do you make of a Republican Administration’s decision to nationalize investment and lending banks and mortgage guarantors? What do you make of a push for a proposal to nationalize $700 billion worth of the debt being carried by private investment and lending institutions? What do you make of a Republican presidential candidate’s proposal to nationalize $300 billion worth of private mortgage debt? Not only do these things nationalize the private sector, but their also redistribute wealth – something you neo-MaCarthy-philes want to scream “socialist” about. Why don’t you also check out Dave’s points above? Translation - THINK! Think for yourself and stop believing the garbage being fed to you by right-wing ideologues who get paid to feed you lies and misinformation. You don’t seem to have a clue what socialism is. I suggest you look it up.
Your definition of a “conservative Christian” is quite loose I must say. Abortion is KILLING, no matter how you try to sugar coat it! Trust me, I know, I have unfortunately made that awful mistake when I was young and scared! What the pro-choice advocates are there telling a woman or God forbid a young girl, is that it is her choice and her body, well let me ask them, where are they years later when she has the emotional scars because of her decision? I will tell you, NOWHERE!!!! You can educate all you want, but accidents happen, unplanned pregnancies happen every day and Obama supports abortion. So, if he is elected, every aborted baby will be partially your responsibility, can you live with that fact? Abortion advocates are a sham and so is your article! You can justify your decision and “spin” the Bible any way you want to, but the truth is the truth, killing is killing and abortion is killing. The emotional damage will haunt a woman or a girl forever. Yes, our God is all forgiving, but HE does let you remember what you have done and NO abortion advocate will ever tell a woman or a girl that little fact! Oh, and please do not tell me you actually believe what Obama “vows” to do? This is the man who has gone back on his word on campaign financing, Ayers, coal, Iran, Iraq, Wright, and on and on….. Please wake up….
Joey – you seem to have some personal, heartbreaking experiential knowledge that is informing your emotional response to my article. While I am glad that my article evoked that kind of emotion in you, please do not misread my article or my viewpoints because of it. I said in the article that I am “unashamedly pro-life”. In the comment stream, I have defended my pro-life views and articulated my position that abortion is murder. You probably did not have time to read my lengthy responses to the lengthy comments, so that’s okay. I will briefly restate what I have said before.
The Republican “pro-life” platform begins and ends with promising to overturn Roe. This is the extent to which the GOP is “pro-life” as a political entity, but it’s an empty promise. Not only did a conservative Court decide Roe, the present conservative Court (there is a 5-4 conservative majority because of Bush’s appointments of Alito and Roberts), in 2006, declined an appeal by the original plaintiff in Roe to have her case overturned. The conservative Court that the GOP has promised all these years would not even overturn Roe when presented with a plea from the original plaintiff! That’s because Roe has achieved stare decisis status, which effectively means it will not be overturned. My article, aside from expressing anger that the GOP has usurped the name of Christ and the good will of Christians to engage a politics of hate, racism, division and rage, is a wake up call to Christians to realize that we must end the fixation on Roe and come up with other solutions in light of the virtual fact that Roe will always be with us.
That’s where Obama comes in. His plan circumvents Roe and will attack the causes of abortion (i.e., what societal and economic factors lead women to feel the need to seek abortion). No one, not even Planned Parenthood, “supports abortion”, and Obama certainly does not. The battle lines have been drawn around Roe – a legal precedent, but Obama plans to erase those battle lines by enacting policies aimed at stopping abortion at the root, so there will be no need to reach the battle lines. You say that mistakes will happen, but those same mistakes will happen in the euphoric world where Roe doesn’t exist…and women will still seek – and obtain – abortions.
I cannot, being a man, imagine the emotional scars felt by women who have abortions, but I know that those scars speak to the fact that no one, not even the people who seek abortions, actually favors abortions. Those scars speak to the fact that abortion exists as a consequence not of apathy or human defect, but as a consequence of the lack of focus on prevention because our singular fixation has been Roe. It’s time to break with the bondage of Roe and focus on a candidate honest enough to admit that we need a policy change.
And with regard to your “examples” of Obama “going back on his word”, the only thing that could even remotely be construed as a flip-flop was his position on campaign finance. No one’s using that to say that Obama is a liar. McCain/Palin’s substantive flip-flop’s on the other hand…. Your other examples, including the “on and on…” are right-wing media fantasies meant to deceive voters such as yourself. I will return your admonition to you – “Please wake up.” You be blessed.
I just want to take a moment to again thank all who have lent their words of thanks, encouragement, agreement and support to me for this article. While I have made a concerted effort to respond to those who disagree with my viewpoint, trust me, your words have resonated deeply within me. I am profoundly thankful, honored and humbled to know that God has used me in this way.
Jafabrit, Ted Bryant, Natividad, Michael, mimi (the Job comment…I’m still speechless on that one!), Christi, David Polinsky, ANappyGirl, Eileen W., Annette, Hashan, Miranda M., IndianaMacherel, John Van Hook, Kenny, Tom, Shasto – (“ROB for PRESIDENT”?! Classic!), TimH, Christina, Alison, Kellie, Cheryl in Florida, Whiteline, Lynn Long, Steve, Katherine T, Evan Schneider, Jesus, Dave (very insightful contributions re: the tax policies of Eisenhower and ideological makeup of the Court that decided Roe), THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH!!! I have attempted to call you by name to personalize my appreciation for you. But if in this list I have forgotten anyone I did not otherwise personally respond to, please charge it to my head and not my heart, for I am honored that you would all stop by my little corner of the world.
And for any subsequent visitor who leaves a comment, know that I will take care and pleasure to respond to you as well. It is both my pleasure and my responsibility to engage my readers. I look forward to it!
****NOW GET OUT AND VOTE!!!! WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?!!****
Rob, I am not an idiot, I am a college graduate and very capable of reading your article completely. Like I said before, you can spin the Bible and justify your decision anyway you want, but know that you will be judged for your decision and for your article by God, not by me or by any other human. The simple fact is you are a Liberal ideologue, who camouflages yourself under the blanket of Christianity, shame on you and shame on those too ignorant to see through you half-hearted attempt to sway Christians this election. Oh, and be well aware, Planned Parenthood does support abortion. Who do you think I went to and who encouraged me to get an abortion in the first place? Get your information straight before you go around and make statements that are blatantly false.
Okay, joey, it is one thing to have a spirited debate on the issues; it is another to impugn my faith or paint me as a charlatan. You and I, having thought about the issues at stake in this election, have reached different conclusions. I have not attempted to imply that you were “an idiot”. If you take from the fact that I returned to you your admonishment to “wake up” that I must think you’re “an idiot”, then your thought must be a reflection of the fact that you think I’m an idiot, because I was only returning to you your quote. And I also confessed to being deceived by the Republican spin machine, so if you took my next-to-last sentence as an insult, know that I must be equally calling myself “an idiot.” In other words, know that I was not calling you “an idiot”, so you need not come to me with your curriculum vita to establish otherwise.
In fact, notwithstanding the guile that you’ve spewed to me, I attempted reach out to you at the opening of my response and throughout it. You can say whatever you want about my faith, it will not change the truth. But for the future, know that you have no right to accuse a Christian of having to “be judged” by God for anything. We are saved not by works or by post-salvation decisions, but by the Blood of Christ, which has already stood in our gap for Judgment. Our salvation comes from Romans 10:9 and, as Christians, our judgment was already completed when we accepted Christ into our heart according to Scripture and, through that judgment, we were found worthy in Christ to have everlasting life with and through Him. You, therefore, have no right to tell a Christian on what they will be judged. The judgment has already been fulfilled.
As I said in my initial post, I respect and empathize with the fact that this issue is particularly personal for you, and I cannot imagine what you must be feeling, but do not use your connectedness with this issue as an excuse to attack me. I have done you no wrong. Reasonable Christians can disagree. That’s what makes God so awesome, he’s given us the ability to critically think and not come to robotic, Borg-like answers (do you watch Star Trek? The Borg is a Trekkie reference, check it out).
Your protests notwithstanding, I suspect that you came to my article with a view predisposed to see it through the prism of your own ideological understanding and, in that regard, while you certainly read the article, your understanding of where I was coming from was tainted by your bias. We all have that bias; this is not a character defect. But it explains why you misread my article as an “attempt to sway Christians in this election”. My attempt was to open Christians’ minds to the GOP’s deceptive tactic of waiving Roe around to get votes while spewing vitriol all over the country. If, having their eyes so opened, Christians decide to still vote for McCain, so be it. At least they will be fully aware.
And re: Planned Parenthood, I respectfully stand by my position that the organization is not “pro-abortion”. If the people you spoke with encouraged you to seek an abortion and downplayed other options, SHAME ON THEM! I would not impute the actions of those dishonorable people to the national organization, though. I don’t think Planned Parenthood, as a corporate entity, actually wants women to get abortions. I hope you will return and, when you do, I hope you will have taken off your “judge the blog host” hat. Thank you.
I think where Christians are making a mistake is to say that the prolife issue is the most important issue for Christians. Although this is important, I think the greater issue is that people are making an idol out of Obama. What happened to trusting God to supply all your need? Why are people thinking that their lives will be much better if Obama is elected? Are you kidding me? What about trusting in God? You see people wearing shirts that say “In Obama we trust”. How about when Obama quoted scripture out of context in 2006 to state his point that we should give in to worldly reasoning and logic? That is the most dangerous thing that Christians face. It is not the abortion issue, it is the issue of people trusting in a man, that they actually believe will save them. Idolatry is the greatest issue for people electing Obama, not the abortion issue. We are to put God first and stand on his principles and vote for the candidate that people will NOT worship, but pray for and hope that he prays and trust God.
People are making an idol out of Obama and this is the most dangerous thing I have ever seen.
“My little children keep yourselves from idols” 1st John 5:21
AB - so your argument is that we should punish a candidate for people’s misguided tendencies to “worship” him, if indeed that’s true and not a right-wing media spin story. After all, we have only bare-bones, spin-cycled, non-contextual, anecdotal evidence to support your theory. But, notwithstanding, an otherwise fit candidate should be disregarded because some feel that people worship him? I would not want to cast away someone who may be the right man for the job just because of the tendencies of his supporters. Those are not the criteria on which we vote.
Also, you can make an equally valid argument that Palin’s supporters worship at the alter of her mike stand and that McCain supporters are fawning to gobble up every word he speaks. Does it make McCain or Palin any less worthy candidates? Certainly not. The views or predilections of their supporters have no bearing on what types of national leaders they will be. I suspect your argument is subterfuge for the fact that you have all sorts of issues with Obama, but before you post them, please review the comment stream. I’m sure many have been raised and addressed by me already.
Oh, and please supply me a contextual link to the quote you’re talking about.
Joey
I bless you in the name of Jesus Christ. I hope that you know that you are not condemned by whatever decision you made in the past. If you truly have repented, than God has forgiven you as far as the East is to the West…and not only has he forgiven you, he has forgotten. This is the plain truth; I’m not twisting the Word of God. There is too much condemnation coming from Christians that do not live according to the Spirit, rather according to the law.
Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites; the blind leading the blind (who by the way end up in a ditch.)…Matthew 15. The Pharisees were the Religious Jews who persecuted Jesus for not obeying the Law of Moses (this includes the 10 commandments). He was condemned by the Pharisees many times for working on the Sabbath (one of the commandments). He was literally handed over to be crucified for breaking the law. This is the point I made earlier, the letter (of the Law) KILLS. Sanctification comes by the Spirit, not the letter. Jesus said his Word is Spirit, and that we have been made clean by the Words he spoke. Sanctification is an on going process that changes us to have the heart and mind of Christ. Because of what MY Lord did for me I am not condemned, I am forever being changed in my mind and heart…always being corrected by the Spirit living in me.
Romans 8:1-4…Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
Good job Rob, you were definately able to speak to my heart…I just had so much personal trouble dealing with the idea of supporting an Adulterer who was continually saying sorry for graduating in the bottom of class, sorry for the broken promises to my first wife, sorry getting the information wrong…like that was suppose to make everything ok. I have always felt that Obama spoke with a true Christian ethic and is able to touch peoples hearts in a loving way. McCain/Palin always seem angry and nasty in their attitudes trying to rile people up with diatribes of hatred. I will do as my concience dictates, not as my pastor suggests. Thanks for waking me up.
a hearty amen!! well-stated.
thank you for addressing this so eloquently and from the stance of someone seeking for a candidate who best embodies the values that matter to me as a christian. abortion is always the contentious issue for the evangelical community and frankly, i hate the assumption that republicans have relied upon for decades: that as part of the evangelical contingent, i am nothing more than a slice of the voting pie. apparently, they need do nothing more than appeal to me to “vote my values” and then they will win.
i’ve been paying close attention throughout the election to the tenor of the ads of the candidates. i’m not a huge tv watcher & admittedly a biased sample, but i’m struck with the fact that mccain’s ads were largely devoid of any message except: don’t vote for obama. they played upon people’s fears regarding terrorism and tried (largely unsuccessfully, i think) to impart a deep fear of obama: he’s a muslim, he’s in league with terrorists, etc. the tactics employed by the mccain/palin camp and the party were appalling. frankly, that is another aspect of their approach that i find insulting.
i also agree that palin is far from being ready to assume the office. i’m not persuaded by her attempts to be cutesy or folksy and also find these not only insulting, but inappropriate for someone seeking the second highest ranking office in our country.
sigh. we will know soon enough, won’t we?
and i’m reminded of something my pastor has said over the last several weeks: no matter who wins this election, jesus will still be in charge on november 5. amen.
Rob, my heart goes out to you, stating your opinion. Defending your opinion, but I agree with some of these comments on love…
When your respond to many of those that disagree with you, you talk down to them. You “puff up” and verbally degrade them. Your sarcasm is easily detected and not nice. They are not fruits of the spirit. I suggest that if you do want people to take you seriously, and listen to you opinion with respect..don’t talk down to those you disagree with. The bible says in essence you should still be respectful, even when in disagreement. I think you owe some of those people an apology, even if they do not apologize to you..
And that is MY opinion.
jason j – thank you for your opinion, with which I must respectfully disagree. Statements such as “I talk down to” my readers and I “verbally degrade them”, and especially that I am “sarcastic” and that I “puff up” are, in my opinion, code words for attacking me because I speak with eloquence (“puff up”) and am unwilling to let slanderous accusations stand in the face of truth. I am reminded of John McCain’s derision of what he referred to as Obama’s “eloquence” during the third presidential debate, and of the GOP’s attempt to smear Obama as “elitist.” I stated rather emphatically in my article that this nation faces a severe problem when mediocrity is championed and intelligence and a passion for disseminating facts are derided. When responding to my detractors I presented facts and a conciliatory tone. Eloquence and fact-centeredness, if indeed I am guilty of those things, are no substitutes for “sarcasm” and “verbal degradation.” I have been at times blunt, directly admonishing those who, for example, called Obama the anti-Christ, pro-abortion, a terrorist sympathizer, or a socialist, to open their mind and their eyes and stop allowing themselves to be mislead by the GOP spin machine. The Apostle Paul, in his letters to various churches, used far more forceful terms in calling people to wake up. Was Paul “talking down” to the early church?
If your offendedness stems from the fact that in the article or comment stream you found I had already refuted a misperception you believed – but did not reveal – about the GOP or Obama, it is natural, albeit improper for you to feel I was “puffing up” against you or some others who held your incorrect views. However, we have to move past the point where we dismiss as effete elitists those who are passionate about arming their brothers and sisters with facts and truth. I may owe you gratitude for visiting and commenting on my article and for allowing my views to move you, but I do not owe you an apology.
And with regard to being respectful in disagreement, I would ask you to look at my exchanges with Brock, 8iron, matt and joey as examples of how my responses to detractors disproves your opinion. Thank you again for your comment.
Are we Christians? I could not vote for a pro abortion candidate no matter what. What about righteous anger? A vote for your wallet over the sanctity of a beating heart? The tactful ability to mush mouth Christian-ese into a rationale is weakness of faith.
Honestly, I know that it was not covered a lot but President Elect Obama argued for late term abortion, abortion on demand, if a baby survives a late term abortion leave it on a table to die. Flat out facts.
What faith in what God are you hiding behind here to justify voting for that?
Anybody who calls them self a Christian and does not see the Genocide of abortion the problem of our time really ought to try Mathew 7:21 21(A) “Not everyone who(B) says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will(C) enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who(D) does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
And for good measure: (not for the faint of heart) http://www.abortionno.org/
It took the moving pictures of bulldozed Jewish corpses to drive home the point. When will we get the point?
Nick – I want you to know that I have already thoroughly addressed all your points in the comment stream above you. Also, please go back to my article. I certainly was not making the argument that anyone should “vote your wallet over the sanctity of a beating heart.” My argument, rather, was that we should vote for Obama because we actually care about that beating heart, rather about a pointless fixation on a legal precedent that will never go away. My point was also that we should abandon a party that preaches Christian rhetoric while engaging a politics that is the antithesis of God.
And your statements that “President Elect Obama argued for late term abortion….” are not “flat out facts”; they are right-wing fear tactic, emotion stirring smears meant to “energize a base” around a cause whose rallying cry is a falsehood. Obama is neither of those things. Please look at the comment stream above re: the Born Alive Act and why the facts dispel GOP/right-wing smears.
If you have any lingering questions about my viewpoint after you read my responses above to comments echoing your own (and you want to stop referring to me dismissively as someone “who calls himself a Christian”), please email me (email address on Contact page). I will be happy to continue this discourse with you so we can reach a greater understanding.
Rob,
Thank you for your thoughtful post. While I may disagree with your choice in candidate, I can wholeheartedly agree that we as Christians have for too long allowed ourselves to be pandered to by the GOP in the ill-conceived hope that they will follow through with their promises regarding abortion and gay marriage while turning a blind eye to other policies (caring for the poor, stewardship of the environment, etc.).
That said, I would like to touch on stare decisis. You mention that Roe v Wade is settled law and unlikely to be overturned. I unfortunately agree with you but would like you to consider that for nearly 60 years Plessy v. Ferguson was settled law and it was only until the court ruled in Browder v. Gayle that the notion of “Separate but Equal” was ruled unconstitutional. I do not believe we should ever stop trying our best to prevent what I consider to be the slaughter of innocents, whether it be by legal precedent or through the the changing of hearts and minds.
Gary – you are so wise to point out the Plessy/Browder distinction! I had that in mind along with Loving and Brown when I made my arguments re: Roe. Perhaps my biggest regret with my article is that I chose to focus on disarming Roe in my comment stream rather than fully vetting it in the article proper. I had to deal with space constraints (as if the article isn’t long enough). As a result of dealing with Roe piecemeal through the comment stream, my argument is disjointed.
Thank you for helping me complete the argument. Actually, if you look about 17 comments up, to my response to Dave on Nov. 4, you’ll see that I already started expressing my view regarding your argument, which is very a challenging argument indeed. My exchange with Dave is long and you can read it if you wish, but the fourth paragraph from the bottom contains the point most relevant to your post.
The long and short of that paragraph and my view that informs it is that I feel we can eventually protect the lives of innocent babies both by legal precedent and through the changing of hearts and minds. Civil rights era Supreme Court decisions reflect that truth. Overturning Plessy required a grass roots movement of change unlike any this nation had seen since the movement that ultimately ended slavery. It was a movement that saw initial disappointment in the courts and that ultimately had to be waged in the media and economic sectors of our country, exposing to the world the brutality of Jim Crow and simultaneously exposing to Jim Crow’s profiteers the economic devastation that disenfranchised Blacks could wreak on the South.
The pro-life movement, in that regard, is akin to the civil rights movement as both saw initial disappointment through the courts and both faced stare decisis law. However, unlike with the civil rights movement, the GOP’s singular focus has been promising to wage a legal battle while not waging a transformative societal battle. As a result, we have laws that aren’t going away because there’s no public outcry regarding the inhumanity of those laws. In my view, Obama finally comes with a plan to affect the culture on the abortion issue, by attacking the socio-economic and other stresses that lead women to seek abortions. In effect, he may enact policies that effectively marginalize abortions to the point where America will ready to cast off the shackles of Roe as irrelevant and archaic. I think Obama is waging the battle for hearts and minds so that a subsequent leader has a better framework to be successful in the battle to change the law.
Sorry for the long reply, but you really hit the nail on the head with your reply, even if your hammer caused you to support another candidate. Thank you for enlightening me with your view.
Nick,
FYI…in regards to your reference to Matthew 7:21, many of those who will not enter the kingdom of heaven that say ‘Lord’, ‘Lord’ will be the modern day Pharisees. Anyone who calls themselves a Christian and questions someone else’s salvation is just wrong! Your ways are not Gods ways and your thoughts are not Gods thoughts.
I think it’s great that you will stand up for what you believe and be passionate about it, that great! I would never go back to the sin I use to live in or condone it, but I have no right to condemn ANYONE for being a slave to the sin I was caught up in. The fact of the matter is SIN is SIN, and ALL sin is covered by the Blood of Christ except blaspheme against the Holy Spirit and of course, falling away after knowing the truth. I don’t know you from “Joe the Plummer”, but I do know that you’re a sinner, Joe’s a sinner, and I’m a sinner and we all fall short.
Righteous anger can easily turn to un-righteous hate, and Jesus said that hating a person is committing murder in heart. Condemning people, Christian or not, with the Bible is murder because the law of the letter kills.
I do not condone abortion AT ALL, nor have I taken anyone opinion in this blog to mean that they are expressing a pro-choice view. Murder, adultery, bearing false witness, etc., it’s all sin…no sin is greater than another. If you believe that one sin is great that another then commandments 1-5 would be greater than 6 (thou shalt not kill). When was the last time we heard of righteous anger over people not honoring there father or mother (number 5 on the list); or over working on the Sabbath (number 4)…wait a minute, this is the one that the Pharisees has righteous anger against Jesus and had him nailed to the cross. Awhh…Hypocrisy at it’s finest.
Nick, if the abortion issue is something you feel so strongly about than I would encourage you to pursue it. We live in a broken world with many injustices of all kinds that break the heart of Christ. The only thing I would tell you is to cast your net on the other side of the boat. You don’t stop abortion by pointing the finger and calling someone a murder, we have a conservative majority right now in the Supreme Court that has not and will not overturn Roe v. Wade. Voting for a Republican will not make a bigger impact on abortion than to have the heart of Christ and reach out (IN LOVE) to people who may be considering an abortion. Speak life into them and always pray, for prayer is your greatest weapon in this fight
By the way the Bible declares that God himself chooses the rulers of the land and he chose Barack Obama to be our next president. I will pray for Obama because God mandates. God said it, that settles it.
Rob J, Thank you so much for posting here. I am a born again Christian who supports and voted for Obama, and though I’ve been aware that others at my church mostly lean toward Republican candidates including McCain, I have been quite shocked in the last weeks at the small, bitter and unreasonable stand of so many people with whom I’ve shared wonderful times of praise, worship and service. I find this so deeply troubling. It is not possible to have a reasonable conversation with them on the points, as they don’t seem to be informed about (or even bothered by) the truth of a what Obama says or stands for. They are fueled by something that feels unreasonable and very near hateful. I grieve in my heart over this and it troubles me greatly. It was a comfort to come here and read through some of the postings, and I will read through more as my time allows. I pray for our President-elect Obama, I join in hope with other Americans who believe that we can work for a better and more just world, and I pray that the dark, harsh view hat many evangelical Christians are taking will be softened by the Holy Spirit and by love.Lord, please give our president elect guidance, strength, vision and hope and let Him draw ever closer to You so that He will be able to lead us in the very great challenges we face.
John 18:37 Jesus said “everyone on the side of truth listens to me.” This implies that there is more than one side. As Christians it isn’t our job to “tolerate” the other side. Neither is it the job of the christian to stop standing up for what is right or what is wrong simply becuase it excludes some people.
I agree that God wants us to love others. Jesus was without sin and a perfect example of loving others. He even laid down his life for us out of his ultimate love! So….if we are to be tolerant of others who have a different opinion of what is right and what is wrong then why didn’t Jesus tolerate the buying and selling in his temple! He went in and turned over the tables! He stood up for what was wrong! God does not hate but he does say that there is only one truth and he is that truth. When visiting with the woman at the well, He was kind and loving to her but he was not tolerant of her sin. He confronted her with her it!
Barack Obama may be a christian but he is not on the side of truth! He is not willing to define right from wrong! He wants to live in a tolerant society. Everyone should get to define what is right for them! If you are one of the christians who voted for Obama, I strongly urge you to forget the “tolerance” theology. Truth can’t be subjective coming from one person to the next. In order for society to have an objective truth it has to come from something that is outside of man. God is the only one who can define that truth. If you let the person next to you decide their own truth, then you can’t have any rules at all. You can’t tell the pedophile that incest is wrong because he really feels that it’s right. You can’t tell the gun owner that owning a gun is wrong because they feel that it’s right. You can’t tell us how to disperse our money it should be our choice. This tolerance nonsense contradicts itself because there is no end to who can define truth. You have a double standard.
If as christians we are to be tolerant then where do we draw the line. Who decides where it stops?
Interest article Rob. You sound like a democratic wolf in lamb clothing posing as a “Christian Conservative”. Nice try. Just keep reading the Bible and you will realize the errors in your logic. We will all be judged and someday condemned for our beliefs. I pray for you…
Since when has the bible ever supported compulsory wealth redistribution? Our country was founded on core principles including the right to private property. My time is my property and when the government decides that it can take more of my money which I spend my time earning because I’m more productive and give it to someone who is less productive there is a serious problem in this country. Right now we are being told that its ok to steal from a segment of society only because objectively they can better afford it. Yes as Christians we are called to a higher standard. We are called to give freely to the poor and help those in need. We are not however asked to mandate that others have to give to the poor. We should give of ourselves not make others give of themselves. Socialism is inherently unchristian and it shames me to hear so many Christians deceived by this.
Thomas - It shames me to hear so many Christians decived by the GOP and the right-wing pundits’ mischaracterizations about what “socialism” is. Please, if you care to, read my responses to comments above regarding what “wealth redistribution” and “socialism” are really all about. I’d also like to point out that there’s nothing “inherently Christian” about capitalism. And since the tax policies favored by McCain were really upstream (from poor to rich) wealth redistribution (at least according to what your understanding of what wealth redistribution is), not to mention that the “bailout” amounted to $700 billion of wealth redistribution from the American tax payer to wealthy banking institutions, can you point me to Scripture that supports “stealing” from that segment of society to give to the wealthy and corporate classes?
Dean - Please read my article and responses to the comment stream and point out to me specific instances of “the errors in [my] logic.” Please also refrain from falling back on the “he must not be a real Christian” argument. Frankly, you do not know me and, even if you did, you are in no position to judge whether I am or am not a Christian. If your only response to a compelling argument is that it must not be coming from a true Christian, then I shudder to imagine what you must think about Christians’ intellectual abilities.
Allyson - Would it surpise you to know that everything you said (except the part about Obama not being on the side of truth and not taking a “right from wrong” stance) resonates in my article? It does. I was not making the argument that Christians should “tolerate” the pro-choice movement. I was making the argument that Christians should open their mind to a new line of attack on the abortion issue. The old line of attack is Roe. That door was closed when a conservative Court blocked the orignal plaintiff’s 2006 attempt to overturn her own decision. But, when one door is closed God opens a new one. I believe Obama speaks of the new line of attack - changing society through education and improving the socio-economic status of those most likelty to seek abortions so that abortion can be marginalized and so that, hopefully, the stage will be set for society to favor legal changes.
This line of attack doesn’t require “tolerance” at all. We are merely walking through another door to achieve the same ends by a different means. I speak more about this approach in the comment stream above. My response to Gary, four comments above yours, is on point, but there are other responses throughout the comment stream as well. If you care to share more of your thoughts, I’d love to listen.
By John PiperJanuary 1, 1995
“Investigating dog life in Minnesota has solidified my decision to vote against those who endorse the right to abortion. So then what is my response to the charge of being a one-issue voter?
No endorsement of any single issue qualifies a person to hold public office. Being pro-life does not make a person a good governor, mayor, or president. But there are numerous single issues that disqualify a person from public office. For example, any candidate who endorsed bribery as a form of government efficiency would be disqualified, no matter what his party or platform was. Or a person who endorsed corporate fraud (say under $50 million) would be disqualified no matter what else he endorsed. Or a person who said that no black people could hold office—on that single issue alone he would be unfit for office. Or a person who said that rape is only a misdemeanor—that single issue would end his political career. These examples could go on and on. Everybody knows a single issue that for them would disqualify a candidate for office.
It’s the same with marriage. No one quality makes a good wife or husband, but some qualities would make a person unacceptable. For example, back when I was thinking about getting married, not liking cats would not have disqualified a woman as my wife, but not liking people would. Drinking coffee would not, but drinking whiskey would. Kissing dogs wouldn’t, but kissing the mailman would. And so on. Being a single-issue fiancé does not mean that only one issue matters. It means that some issues may matter enough to break off the relationship.
So it is with politics. You have to decide what those issues are for you. What do you think disqualifies a person from holding public office? I believe that the endorsement of the right to kill unborn children disqualifies a person from any position of public office. It’s simply the same as saying that the endorsement of racism, fraud, or bribery would disqualify him—except that child-killing is more serious than those.
When we bought our dog at the Humane Society, I picked up a brochure on the laws of Minnesota concerning animals. Statute 343.2, subdivision 1 says, “No person shall . . . unjustifiably injure, maim, mutilate or kill any animal.” Subdivision 7 says, “No person shall willfully instigate or in any way further any act of cruelty to any animal.” The penalty: “A person who fails to comply with any provision of this section is guilty of a misdemeanor.”
Now this set me to pondering the rights of the unborn. An eight-week-old human fetus has a beating heart, an EKG, brain waves, thumb-sucking, pain sensitivity, finger-grasping, and genetic humanity, but under our present laws is not a human person with rights under the 14th Amendment, which says that “no state shall deprive any person of life . . . without due process of law.” Well, I wondered, if the unborn do not qualify as persons, it seems that they could at least qualify as animals, say a dog, or at least a cat. Could we not at least charge abortion clinics with cruelty to animals under Statute 343.2, subdivision 7? Why is it legal to “maim, mutilate and kill” a pain-sensitive unborn human being but not an animal?
These reflections have confirmed my conviction never to vote for a person who endorses such an evil—even if he could balance the budget tomorrow and end all taxation.”
Again, there are some issues that simply matter more than others. Christians campaigning against slavery in the 1850’s should not have winced at being called single-issue voters. An issue like slavery was so cruel and inhumane that it certainly would have been a God-sized first priority. The unborn, and our voting to protect them, should be the same.
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Not a real good job if you were actually trying to reach out to the conservative Christian base (which maybe you weren’t). The underlying anger in the article was a little too palatable for my taste. You attack some Christians for attacking Obama then turn around and pass a very harsh judgement on Palin. I mean, do you really not see the hypocrisy in your article?
I proudly voted for Obama in a very red state, but I don’t think that Obama himself would care for the rhetoric that you put in this article. I was so excited to see the civility that existed between the candidates in this race…and I hope that intellegent people like yourself will also participate in the civility and unity and Obama has based his campaign on.
A long winded cop out for betraying your brothers and sisters in the Lord and for betraying the millions of unborn children who will be murdered under the obama regime, if he is not stopped by the remaining republicans in the congress. Shame on you for jumping on the worship bandwagon of obama
Ryan – I admire your passionate response. You have touched on a counter argument that I anticipated and already have strong feelings about but, because of how those feelings may be received, had heretofore not intoned.
I must first say though (and you may ardently disagree with me on this), that your response is built on the faulty premise that Obama “endorses abortion.” I think this sentiment in many Christians reflects evangelical leaders’ slander of people who are pro-choice. I have argued many times here that no one is “pro abortion”. No one actually wants to kill babies. No one “endorses abortion.” Viewing people who are “pro choice” through the lens of this slander has caused Christians to vilify those who are pro-choice for many years and that villainization must stop.
Now, back to my original point – in my article I touched on the hypocrisy of the GOP in rhetorically espousing one Christian value while trampling over just about all others. I would find it equally deplorable to vote for a candidate who would appropriate my vote and my values to build a platform that harmed the poor and the sick, that created the environment out of which people feel the need to seek abortions, and that championed hatred, division, fear, tribalism and mediocrity. I consider a Christian allegiance to the GOP for a “single issue” when the GOP’s platform is so fundamentally against the teachings of Christ on all other issues to be a dangerous dance with the Devil.
The hypocrisy of the GOP is the foundation for the argument that I did not intone in my argument. Please take no offense, but I must be blunt in my next statement. I consider it equally hypocritical for Christians to vote for GOP candidates on a supposed “pro life” platform when those candidates display none of the actual values that form the core of Christ’s commandment. I have said many times in this comment stream that the GOP’s alleged “pro life” platform is not really pro life at all. But beyond that, what gives Christians the right to pick and choose which of Christ’s teachings will form the basis for their political ideologies? Christ admonished us to love one another, to care for the poor and sick, and to be a light to a fallen world. Who are we to say “thanks for all that, God, but I’m going to support the Party whose platform is the antithesis of Your commandment because that Party said they’ll protect unborn children.”
Don’t get me wrong. I am not diminishing the importance of protecting the unborn; I am merely pointing out the hypocrisy of Christians to think it proper to throw away multiple values in support of one as though making the unilateral decision that that value is more important than all of God’s other values. It is also hypocritical for Christians to passionately argue for government protection of unborn children and yet fall silent when government does nothing to care for born children. Bush’s legacy – and McCain’s proposed platform – made a mess of the healthcare system, increased joblessness and poverty and exacerbated a failing educational system in this country. Children, particularly poor children, suffered disproportionately because of these failures. In supporting this paradox, Christians are essentially saying that we are pro-life in womb, but indifferent to life out-of-womb. That too is hypocrisy.
It is also tantamount to self-deification. For in making the single-issue of abortion the trump card over all other criteria, Christians are elevating one sin above all others. Somewhere above in the comment stream, I pointed out several of the Ten Commandments that McCain/Palin and/or the GOP broke either during this campaign or earlier. To say that we’ll turn a blind eye to the breach of four or five Commandments but make abortion our sticking point is like saying God didn’t know what He was talking about when He told us that all sin was equally repugnant in His eyes. We stand where Christ stands. We don’t stand on one of His principles and walk away from the others. In doing otherwise, we are essentially catapulting our thoughts above God’s.
Which brings me back to the conclusion of my article. I am an Obama supporter because for me he represents a holistic embracing of Christ’s commandment. While right-wing talking heads and well meaning (some of them, at least) evangelical leaders have convinced some that he is “pro-abortion”, he is actually not. He is going to make a point of attacking abortion through a door other than the titanium “Roe v. Wade” door in a way that may ultimately change society’s views on abortion. So far, Christians have been more concerned about changing legal precedent than about changing society’s attitude. (To build on your slavery example, society’s attitude had to be changed through a grass roots campaign before the law could be changed.) Obama proposes to attack the situations which lead women to seek abortion and he proposes to address issues faced by low-to-middle class workers and those who need healthcare. That’s holistic.
What ever happened to humility? Some of the comments are just down right perverse. Not a one of you can tell me that you are perfect enough to shame anyone. Please identify yourself if you follow every creed and mandate in the Bible thus making you Holy and without sin. I will be the first to tell you that I am not perfect and sooner or later I will fall in my own human nature, like all of you, I have thorns in my flesh. Please, if you are without sin…give me the secret to your success.
Allyson – Hate is a God given emotion, but just like everything else (especially the Law of the Bible) the devil has perverted it. God hates sin, it stinks to him, but when we are covered by the Blood of Jesus…God the father sees his Son in us. We have to hate intelligently, hate the sin and not the sinner.
When Moses spoke the plegs over Eqypt, who do we say did it? Whose will was it? Was it Moses, no, it was God that did it through Moses. When Moses killed the Egyptian, whose will was it? Was it Moses’ will? No, it was Satan’s will, and Satan committed murder through Moses. God will use people to build others up and to bring correction, but the devil will use people tear people down and steal, kill and destroy.
You can read the Bible all you want and will not get understanding unless it is given to you by the Holy Spirit. Religion is what put my Savior on the cross and I am reading many comments from a religious mindset (Hollyer than thou). Toss that religion in the garbage where it belongs and get yourself a relationship with Jesus; then you can read the Word and get Truth.
Trey – Thanks for your comment and for your view. It seems you misunderstood my article. I didn’t attack Christians for attacking Obama. In fact, I didn’t attack Christians at all. I admitted to being a Christian who’d been deceived by the GOP, so if you think I attacked any Christian, I was attacking myself. And also, there is a difference between righteous indignation and letting anger lead to sin (for even if my article did intone “anger”, anger is not a sin). My article expressed indignation and I make no apologies for the forcefulness through which I expressed that indignation. The tone was intentional and, further, it was aimed more at GOP leadership than at Christians.
I also didn’t pass “a very harsh judgment” on Palin. I listed the ways she either spread outright lies against her former opponents or grossly mischaracterized facts in a way that amounted to lies. I also debunked her own stated qualifications and decried her attempt to dumb-down the voting population. These are facts. Pointing out facts is not passing judgment. I did an analysis, based on facts provided by Palin, of her qualifications and of what her nomination by the GOP says about what the GOP thinks of Christians. None of this was hypocritical.
And, respectfully, if you saw civility extended by McCain toward Obama during the campaign, you were watching a different campaign than me. I do, however, share your vision for post-election civility and remain committed – as I always have been (please review my responses above) – to helping that civility begin.
profile motherof4 – I respect your point, but you missed mine. Your short response also indicates a lack of some critical facts that may make you change, or at least critically rethink, your attack on me and your views about our President-elect. If you care to, please read some of my responses in the comment stream. You can also email me (email address on Contact page) if you want to discuss further.
Rob, I just appreciate you so much. Your article is insightful,thorough, and compelling. Your continued feedback is a true ministry. There are many out there truly afraid of Obama and skeptical of his supporters. I have recently begun to write emails myself to Christian friends who have expressed the same ill-advised concerns of the oh-so-many comments above. It is a time consuming and emotionally laden process to find the right words and explanations to help move friends and loved ones from a position of fear to a place of transformational understanding. Your competent handling of the many above concerns and criticisms have greatly aided me in dialogue with friends. You are obviously an intelligent individual and I appreciate you allowing God to use your skills and broad knowledge base to bring healing to Christian divisiveness. Unfortunately, the tone of some aspects of your article and some of your feedbacks are a bit too aggressive for most of my “weaker brother” friends. I’ve simply taken your info and your great arguments and worded them with language a little easier for them to swallow. I do want to emphasize that you have handled marvellously the amount of hate spewed at you in these discussions. I don’t know how well I would have held up under the same personal attacks. I know your straight forward manner has been very needed in this discussion and I appreciate your resolve and steadfastness. On a side note, you and Matt cracked me up. I’m glad you both worked it out in the end.
Rob, could you share more insight into the Rev. Wright issue. I’m trying to read everything I can get my hands on to try and explain this to my friends. You said you’d share more of your thoughts if someone asked. So, I’m asking. Thanks again for all you do.
Natasha – Your kind words warm my soul. As a personal note, my “transformational understanding” (as you so eloquently put it – I will add that to my vernacular) stems in part from my law school education. It also stems from a paradigm-shifting journey I began after beginning to read Steven Covey’s book, “The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People.” You have asked a question that requires a long answer, perhaps longer than those I’ve given above. I will answer you, hopefully this evening if not tomorrow at the latest. I’m telling you this now to avoid you thinking that I am ignoring your question. If you would rather me drop you an email, you can email me at the address on my Contact page. Thanks again for your kind words.
NOT A DIRECT COMMENT FOR THIS THREAD, BUT I WOULD LIKE YOU TO GIVE THIS ENTRY A READ.
President-Elect Obama: A Way to Celebrate, A Way to Serve
I’m writing this mostly for the 46.39% whose candidate did not win the White House. Your disappointment may be deep, because your concern was great. Let us face our disappointments as believers with a far greater hope. Elections are important but they are not ultimate. Our ultimate hope is in Jesus, who has brought us one day closer to His perfect Kingdom. Seize that thought and fix your gaze there.
Some of us have made a critical mistake this election season. We have not just worked for a cause. We’ve worshipped a candidate. We placed hopes and dreams in a man and a human message. Both sides are guilty of this. And for the people of God, this is cause for repentance. These are just men and women. They are not saviors.
However, I urge you to genuinely embrace the beauty of this historical moment. A black man has been elected to the White House. Let’s celebrate this fact as evidence of our nation’s progress. John McCain so graciously reminded us that Teddy Roosevelt was once scorned for simply inviting a black man, Booker T. Washington, to be his guest at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. Now a black family has that as their address. They are not token guests, they are rightful residents. A nation that once sold people as merchandise, now can enjoy (in a new and historic way) the long awaited product of freedom. Seeing Jesse Jackson with tears in his eyes, regardless of your views of the man or his politics, was moving. It was moving but unlike the tears of John Lewis, U.S Congressman and civil rights activist, earlier this year. In an interview with CNN, recorded for a special documentary on the 40 year anniversary of Dr. King’s assassination, Lewis wept openly. For Lewis the tears represented wounds still raw. For Jackson, it seemed the tears represented something else. Tears of joy.
We should share the joy of moral and spiritual progress in civil rights. I heard many voices writing an anticipatory narrative for Obama’s defeat. “It will be the Bradley effect!” “The Bubba vote will cost Obama down South!” “The hidden bigotry of America is still too powerful!” Really? Iowa, mostly white, launched Senator Obama’s presidential bid. Returns show that it was not so much African-American turn out, but young white voters that gave Mr. Obama the victory. Progress. Raising money traditionally hamstrung black candidates. Senator Obama shattered records, raising money from every corner of the country. At $700 million raised he was on pace to be the billion dollar man. Progress. A man with a black father and a white mother has received more votes than any other person who has ever run for the presidency. Progress. Something to celebrate.
And celebrate it because it looks like the Gospel. I believe this is further fuel to our fire for racial reconciliation. This is not the end, nor is it the beginning, it is a step that God is compelling us to take. We must seize on this moment. We must seize it for the right reasons. Because racial reconciliation is the Gospel tangibly presented. Paul shares the Gospel to the Ephesians in terms of race (Ephesians 2). Biblical racial hostility existed between Jews and Gentiles. The Gospel was a grafting in of previously disenfranchised people, into one new family. He saves us by a Kinsmen Redeemer, Jesus our brother. If God can overcome the religious, ethnic and cultural divide between Jew and Gentile, he certainly can bridge the divide between white and black. Let’s pursue reconciliation in our cities so that in that missional act, people might see the Gospel in our lives together.
So, that is something to celebrate. But there is also a way to serve. And here it is: watch and pray. Reagan used to say “trust but verify.” I say “watch and pray.” The popularity of any man can become overreaching power. Don’t be afraid. Watch and pray. Many have made campaign calls, displayed yard signs and bumper stickers, gone to rallies, stuffed envelopes, watched polls, and given money. Watch. Stay informed. Stay tuned in. Continue to learn the issues. Continue to work for what you believe in. Don’t obsess. Don’t love politics too much. Remember we are in the world, but not of it. But also, don’t slouch into non-service just because November 4 has passed. Watch and pray. On the campaign, Senator Obama wooed and won many “evangelicals.” They should watch and pray. They should urge him, while honoring him with kindness, to lead in such a way that keeps their trust.
I will be watching and praying with particularly close attention to the issue of abortion. My hope and prayer is that President Obama will dramatically change his position towards the unborn. I continue to believe that institutionalized infanticide is the leading human rights issue of our day. It is one thing to address human rights issues that have become mainstream: human trafficking, clean water wells in developing countries, world AIDS awareness, genocide in countries in conflict, just to name a few. These are important and deserve attention. But we must also address human rights when we must swim up stream, when it is not in vogue. The human rights of the unborn have been tragically dismissed by public relations firms. With tricks of slogan, semantics, and existential thought we have redefined life in our image. But life is made in the image of God. So, join me in watching and praying, serving and working for this supreme issue in American culture.
There you have it. A way to celebrate: enjoy the taste of progress and continue to pursue it for the expansion of the Gospel. And a way to serve: by watching and praying, for our new President, and working for the least of these. And never forget, God is on the throne. God is forever, U.S. Presidents are temporary. This will allow you the proper perspective between work and worship, important and ultimate.
Ryan- Amen and agian I say Amen!
Thank you for your excellent post, Rob. You have well articulated my thoughts on the hypocrisy of the GOP (yes, they truly remind me of the Pharisees in the Bible). I also consider myself a conservative Christian of 25+ years. However, having followed the speeches, debates and policies presented in this election, there is no way I can give my vote to McCain/Palin. Altho’ Obama is not perfect, he did demonstrate the intelligence, temperament, consistency, and “class” that I would expect of someone in the position of the President. I’m not saying that one who can run a good campaign is necessarily a good president, but to the ones who cannot even manage their own campaigns, can I trust them to manage the country..? McCain changed his theme every three days and ended up relying on “Joe the Plumber” (who is not a licensed plumber and tax-cheater) and smearing tactics. He sent out massive robocalls out of desperation even though he had been a victim of robocalls when running against Bush, and had stated years ago that he would never use robocalls. Hillary Clinton was not able to manage the bickering among her campaign personnels and also put her campaign into serious debt. I would not choose either of them to be the leader of my country.
I have received an enormous number of propaganda emails from Christian friends stating nonsense like “Sarah (Palin) is that standard God has raised up to stop the flood. She has the anointing…” “The anti-christ will be a man, in his 40s, of MUSLIM descent, who will deceive the nations with persuasive language, and have a MASSIVE Christ-like appeal….the prophecy says that people will flock to him and he will promise false hope and world peace, and when he is in power, will destroy everything…” etc etc. I guess there must be a market for these beyond-stupid emails. I had tried to reason with the “forwarders” but there was still no end to it. Eventually I could only delete them all without wasting my time to explain.
I am so glad that Obama has won this election, and by a significant margin. I will continue to pray for him and his government.
Amazing post. First time visitor to your blog and definitely will be back. You encapsulated (quite beautifully) so many of my thoughts. I really struggled with who I was going to vote for in this election and prayed about night and day, night and day. But I simply couldn’t back the GOP - not after the past 8 years and not after the path they had led this nation down. Not after the continued widening of the gulf between rich and poor.
And truthfully (quoting my pastor here) - our FIRST citizenship is in the Kingdom of God. Jesus is not a Republican! Jesus is not a Democrat! He wouldn’t take that demotion! (And it completely belittles what he did on Calvary for ALL of us!!!)
God is bigger than this election… God is bigger than our democracy, and God certainly doesn’t need our country (He’s be around WELL after the USA is nothing but dust…), but we DEFINITELY need him. No matter how we feel about Obama (whether we voted for him, like you and I did, or not); we need to get behind him as our President. The Word commands it to be SO! And we need to pray for him and pray God’s continued favor upon our nation.
Thanks again for an excellent post - I’ll definitely be a frequent visitor!
Just read the letter from 2012 written by Focus of the Family. What a masterpiece, 16 pages of ridiculous lies that they even took the time to make up. Shame on you, James Dobson. Thankfully not all Amercians, and not all Christians think like that. What they attempted to do is truly scary, and is an insult to our intellect.
Natasha – Okay, here goes. This is real long, so bear with me please. My views on Wright are complex, but I think the gist of it is that believe some Christians unwittingly elevate patriotism to the level of idolatry. I also think there’s a little hypocrisy at play here. I’ll expand, starting with a pretty disturbing quote:
They watch as we poison their water… So far we may have killed a million of them — mostly children. They wander into the towns and see thousands of the children, homeless, without clothes, running in packs on the streets like animals. They see the children, degraded by our soldiers as they beg for food. They see the children selling their sisters to our soldiers, soliciting for their mothers… What do they think as we test our latest weapons on them, just as the Germans tested out new medicine and new tortures in the concentration camps of Europe? …We have destroyed their two most cherished institutions: the family and the village… We have corrupted their women and children and killed their men. What liberators? …We must speak for them and raise the questions they cannot raise. These too are our brothers.
How dare he compare America to Nazi Germany! How dare he accuse America of destroying families and corrupting women and children! How dare he evoke a kinship with the enemy! What’s the problem with my exclamatory sentiments? The “he” in question is not Jeremiah Wright. It is the Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr. King was speaking out against the Vietnam War in an April 4, 1967 speech before Riverside Church in NYC. I give the quote as a two-pronged example: (1) it presents the fallacy of judging the man by the quote. No sensible person would argue that MLK wasn’t a patriot. No sensible person would say that MLK is someone a presidential candidate should avoid being associated with. We should not, therefore, cast judgment on the character of Rev. Wright, and by association President-elect Obama, based on quotes when we do not know the fullness of the man’s character. I note in this regard that Rev. Wright has fulfilled a patriotic duty that many of his Christian persecutors probably have not undertaken – he was a marine. (2) It reflects the tendency of patriotic Christians to deify the U.S. I’ll expand on this point.
Some Christians view America through rose-colored glasses. The idea is that America’s domestic and international policies are always right and for the greater good. It’s almost as though America is a sort of God on Earth. “God is on our side” is the oft-quoted phrase of President Bush, as though America is so important that it can claim God as a sidekick. Thus, when people issue rebukes of America’s actions, patriotic Americans – Christians among them – reflexively label them “un-American”. The problem is that the label reflects an unwillingness to accept that America is an imperfect nation that has a tainted history of horrifyingly mistreating not only other populations but also its own citizens.
Rev. Wright made some profoundly damning statements, but what Christians who are condemning him are not accepting is that most of those statements are true. It is no more unpatriotic for Rev. Wright to call America out on its bad acts than it was for Dr. King to do so. In my view, if we as Christians write off as unpatriotic a person who publicly calls America on its actions, we are essentially equating that person’s statements with blasphemy. Only by pledging blind allegiance to the U.S. can we convince ourselves that those who speak badly of its actions are heretics. And if we excommunicate those who rightly call America on its actions, we effectively say that America is infallible, thus the elevation of patriotism to idolatry.
There’s also an element of hypocrisy in the Christian condemnation of Rev. Wright, with regard to his charge that America brought 9/11 on itself. Never mind the fact that he was borrowing the quote from a former Reagan Administration official who was speaking on Fox News, Wright wasn’t even the only Christian leader who expressed this view. Jerry Falwell had this to say:
I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say ‘you helped this happen’.
Pat Robertson echoed those sentiments:
We have sinned against Almighty God, at the highest level of our government, we’ve stuck our finger in your eye,” said Robertson. “The Supreme Court has insulted you over and over again, Lord. They’ve taken your Bible away from the schools. They’ve forbidden little children to pray. They’ve taken the knowledge of God as best they can, and organizations have come into court to take the knowledge of God out of the public square of America.
So clearly these evangelical Christian leaders were proclaiming that 9/11 represented God’s wrath upon a wayward America. Yet conservative Christians would never label them or their parishioners as non-patriots. In my view, this is hypocrisy. Why should we castigate Rev. Wright when we continue to elevate evangelical leaders who make the same statements? Are Robertson and Falwell off the hook because they limited their attacks to segments of the population that Christians look down on whereas Wright broadened his focus to the whole of America? That’s quite a self-serving distinction. The fact of the matter is, though Christians, including Revs. Falwell and Robertson, may be misguided for thinking they can proclaim the wrath of God, they are certainly not un-patriotic for doing so.
And what of Mr. Wright’s incorrect statements – the sentiment that America created AIDS or that the U.S. government intentionally injected syphilis into unsuspecting African American subjects (only partially true, according to the official historical account, which is still pretty awful)? People believe all kinds of falsehoods about the U.S. Does that make them lepers? Many people believe that JFK’s assassination was a government conspiracy. Some also believe that FDR had significant advance warning of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Do these people still go to work everyday, pay their taxes, tuck their kids in at night and pledge allegiance to the flag? I’m sure they do. Since when has falling victim to a conspiracy theory rendered you a non-patriot?
I also believe there’s an element of racial prejudice in the accusation against Wright. What troubles me is that Rod Parsley and John Hagee have been known to go on rants that could be considered unpatriotic and even anti-Semitic (and also recall Robertson’s and Falwell’s comments above). (I’ve even heard one preacher on the Focus on the Family radio broadcast accuse America of being apostate.) And yet, no conservative Christian has made an issue of John McCain’s association with Hagee and Parsley and neither have they taken issue with Parsley, Hagee, Robertson and Falwell in general. It’s as though there is a fear of the “angry Black man” that’s being projected on Rev. Wright. Why is it that White Christian pastors are allowed to proclaim God’s judgment on America and not Black Christian pastors? It’s either because it’s good for Christians to make incendiary, anti-American comments so long as the subject matter is in line with the right-wing agenda (e.g., saying gays are responsible for 9/11), or because it’s only good for unintimidating, non-dashiki-wearing white Christians to make anti-American statements. It’s troubling either way, and reflects a double standard that Christians should be mindful of. Christians should also be weary of participating in – and even leading the charge of – the persecution of another human being. If Wright’s statements reflect a defect, that is between him and God, not between him and judgmental Christians.
So there you have several reasons why Rev. Wright’s quotes do not make him unpatriotic and why the “guilt by association” smear shouldn’t fall to Obama for being associated with him. I note as an aside that the quotes circulating about Rev. Wright were taken from two sermons – one on Sept. 16, 2001 and the other on April 13, 2003. While many people do not believe Obama had not previously heard these sermons, it is not implausible that he was absent on these days. The 2001 sermon was immediately following a national crisis and Obama was a State Senator. It is conceivable that was tending to State business. The 2003 sermon was shortly after we started Operation Iraqi Freedom, a war that Obama vocally protested. Obama was also likely starting his run for the U.S. senate at the time (hence his comment against the Iraq war), so campaign and/or war-related matters may have kept him away from church on that day. Just something to think about.
I hope my thoughts on this have helped.
Rob, what are your thoughts with regards to many of the same individuals you listed above justifying the war in Iraq with biblical truth, i.e. war is justified when a nation is attacked by another. We all know now that the war in Iraq was based on the premise that Iraq had WMD’s by the intelligence community that ended up to be unfounded. Wouldn’t that make the initial combat, resulting in the unreported deaths of hundreds of thousands incident Iraqi civilians (who have never heard the Gospel) unjustified from a biblical standpoint? I know we should protect life but there is no outrage for non-American life unjustly being destroyed
Rob,
I was absolutely thrilled to find your blog before this election. Though as you are probably aware, the skepticism of Obama has not dwindled. I have a question though. Where has Obama vocally denounced gay-marriage? I know that the vice-presidential debate Biden said he was anti-gay marriage, but other than that i can’t find any other examples. Do you have an article or piece of information to support this claim? I know it is said that Obama wants to repeal the Defense of Marriage Bill, so if that is true, how could he be anti-gay marriage? I feel the need to have evidence when i am constantly reminding others (skeptics) Obama’s stance on this subject.
Thank you for your time, and keep up the great work!
Very well written but misleading on some points. First, being pro-life and pro-marriage is not a Republican or Democratic thing. It’s a God thing. The Democrats have every right to stand for these values AND push their other agendas as well. Who knows, they might never lose an election. It sounds like you chose to vote the values that were most important to you. And that’s okay. I am an African American who chose to vote my values and voted for John McCain b/c of his commitment to overturning Roe v Wade and slowing down the murders of more than 52 million babies. As a businessman, I also like the idea of not raising taxes on ANY American — especially the BIG businesses that supplied the goods and services so many middle class Americans depend on daily. My experience has taught me that businesses pass most increased costs to consumers and taxpayers. And making sure the job was complete in Iraq and Afghanistan before returning our troops home so we don’t have another Afghinistan (you may recall that the US fought with the muhajadeen against the Soviets, left prematurely leaving the Taliban and Al-qaeda to rise up plan their attacks)on our hands was also important to me. Rob, if we don’t care about the unborn who can’t defend themselves and are precious to God, how can we care about poverty, marriage, racism, etc. I do agree that we have to take care of the millions of children who are living. We need a continued commitment to address health care disparities, poverty, racism, etc. But all of these problems have existed since the beginning of time and have not abated significantly through Democratic and Rebuplican administrations. These are issues that will NEVER go away. But ABORTION and EMBRYONIC STEMCELL RESEARCH CAN BE SEVERELY CURTAILED IF WE REVERSE ROE v. WADE, rapidly increase support for organizations that give women an alternative to abortions, promote abstinence, etc. I pray the spirit will guide us all as we face these decisions in our next election. My prayer is that president elect Obama will seek God’s wisdom as he leads this country. God bless us all — the poor, the oppressed, the unborn, et al.
John – Thanks a lot for your compliment and your question! Regarding Obama’s views on gay marriage, I don’t think you’re going to find something as strong as a “denouncement”, such as what would come from Dr. Dobson’s platform, but Obama has stated on the campaign trail that he is opposed to gay marriage and in favor of civil unions. Here’s a video link of comments to that effect during a campaign event in Durham, NH. I’m sure there are other examples where Obama has spoken on this, but this is the one that readily comes to mind.
Jesus – Thanks for your continued comments on my site, by the way. I really appreciate it. Regarding your question, I think that Christians who justify Operation Iraqi Freedom by saying “God is on our side” there or that we’re carrying out God’s will are misguided. Obviously God’s providence covers everything and God ultimately works everything out in accordance with His perfect will, but I shudder to think that God would purpose the U.S. to preemptively attack another country based on faulty – and I would even say fraudulent – evidence. God is not a god of deception. So I do not think He purposed the U.S. to invade another country based on the deceptions that led us there. Again, God will work the Iraqi situation out in accordance with His perfect will, but our invasion of Iraq was not – in my opinion – an action that resulted from God’s purposive will.
Rob,
Thank you so much! Your thoughts are truly helpful. I was looking forward to reading your information and you didn’t disappoint. The quotes given, analogies made, and arguments presented were again very compelling. When I get overwhelmed looking over the negative Obama emails in my inbox; I think of you and find encouragement. I can’t say enough of how much I appreciate your insightful mind, your sacrificial time, and your gracious heart. You truly minister.
Rod Harris - This article did not examine my views on GOP v. DEM fiscal and foreign policies, so your discussion of your conservative fiscal preference and your view about Iraq/Afghanistan, while welcome, are not really on point to the discussion of the article. I would love for you to read my articles on the economy, healthcare, and McCain’s foreign policy agenda, so we can expand on those discussions if you choose. You can also look to my discussion with Matt earlier in the comment stream, as Matt held your same views on fiscal and foreign policy and I touched on my counter views with him. I would welcome the discussion with you.
I absolutely agree with you about the sanctity of life and marriage and about the fact that those issues are not Party-specific. I apologize if you walked away from my article thinking I viewed the life of the unborn and the sanctity of marriage as merely political issues. In fact, I blasted the GOP for making them merely political issues, and for using those issues to usurp Christian votes while they engaged a policy agenda of hate, divisiveness, and exacerbation of the economic and healthcare imbalance between the poor/working class and the wealthy/corporate class. Further, I chided the GOP for tying Christians to Roe notwithstanding the facts that: (1) Roe will not be overturned; and (2) overturning Roe will not stop abortions. The sanctity of life and of marriage are moral issues that have been improperly politicized by the GOP.
The second area in which you seem to think that my article was misleading is the Roe issue. Earlier in the comment stream, I expressed regret that I did not expand on my views about Roe in the article. In the comment stream, however, I pointed out several things: (1) The Supreme Court already has the conservative majority that Republicans have been promising us and, in 2006, that Court declined to hear an appeal from the original Roe plaintiff, who was seeking to have Roe overturned. The Court had the perfect opportunity to overturn Roe but didn’t - why: because Roe is stare decisis now; (2) actually, Dave pointed out above that Roe was decided by a Court whose Justices had largely been appointed by GOP presidents; (3) Roe has already been curtailed to the limit of constitutional permissibility; (4) extending on (1), above, Roe will very likely not be overturned; and (5) overturning Roe will not stop abortion.
The GOP seems to not want us to know that their own conservative Courts decided Roe and, in 2006, kept it alive. Why? Because they want to continue our fixation on Roe, keeping false hope alive while they hold onto power and enact policies that favor big business and exacerbate the societal factors that lead women to seek abortions. Obama’s plan actually proves that the pro-life issue is not a Dem or GOP issue, it’s a human issue. Obama’s plan aims to address the societal factors that lead women to seek abortions, thereby marginalizing abortions and achieving the goal of “giving women an alternative to abortions”. Supporting Obama is not tantamount to abandoning the unborn. It is, however, abandoning failed policies that are not protecting the unborn. A fixation on a legal precedent that’s not going anywhere will never stop abortion; neither will electing officials whose economic and fiscal policies exacerbate the societal factors that lead women to seek abortions. Obama has an outside-the-box view of the issue: stop flailing against the brick wall of legal precedent and attack abortion at its root. So, you can “vote your values” and vote for a Democratic candidate. The value of protecting the unborn is not being protected by the GOP, their rhetoric notwithstanding. My vote for Obama was a vote for all my values, not just one or two of them.
And though poverty, healthcare disparities and racism will never go away, that doesn’t give us the right to abandon the fight against them and elect policy makers who will actually deepen those societal ills. We have to continue to fight to diminish those societal ills.
Touching on the economic agenda of the GOP; I have no problem with people who hold the trickle-down ideology, as you do. My problem is with: (1) the fact that trickle-down economics has almost been empirically proven to not work; and (2) the acceptance of fiscal policies that call for giving those who need tax cuts most the equivalent of $21 extra while the wealthiest get over $290,000 (a 0.8% tax break for the lowest quintile vs. a 4.4% cut for the wealthiest). That’s unfair, and it’s upstream wealth redistribution. I expand on this in the article linked to above. We can continue the discussion there.
Touching on the foreign policy issue, the argument over staying in Iraq “until the job is done” and leaving Iraq in a reasonable time-frame (as Obama proposes) is almost moot. Iraq is a sovereign country whose leaders have made it abundantly clear that they want us gone. We cannot overstay our welcome in a sovereign nation. In fact, the Bush Administration has already agreed to a withdrawal timeline.
Thanks for your thoughtful comment. The best ideas arise out of differences of opinion.
Natasha - It is comments like yours that keep me encouraged. Thank God for you. I am honored that God gave me whatever talents I seem to be bringing to bare in my writing and I thank Him further for awakening in me the resolve to use those talents. Thank you again.
Ryan - your post was inspirational and even gave me a refreshing way to look at Obama’s historic election. Thank you so much for adding such wonderful insights to my site.
Gwen - thank you so much for your comments! That “anti-Christ” smear has been hurled against so many people who Christian leaders decide they don’t want to like. As far as I’m concerned it amounts to an attempt to rob God of his power. We become soothsayers if we keep trying to peg the “anti-Christ” label on people, notwithstanding the fact that we’re using the term as a replacement for a curse word just to smear the name of a leader whose policies we don’t like. And that letter from 2012 - inflammatory and disgusting. I really appreciate your contribution. I too am elated that Obama won this election and by enough electoral votes for it to be considered a mandate.
HappyWifeHappyLife - boy is your screen name ever true! I am so honored that you would choose to be a frequent visitor to my site. I never thought God would use me in this way; He truly is awesome! Thank you so much for your comment!
Rob, I read your article on the day it was posted, and found it incredibly heartening. I have been wrestling with many of these same issues myself, and it was so encouraging to know that another Christian was having the same struggles - and had the courage to thoughtfully research it and to share his views. I suppose that (based on the massive and varied commentary on your post) that I should state my “credentials” (tongue firmly in cheek) before saying more . . . I am an evangelical Christian and a member of a bible-believing church. I do not support gay marriage or abortion under any circumstances.
Now that I’ve gotten that said, I find it interesting that your readers have each seen something different - something that either rang true or false - in your comprehensive post. In that regard, I suppose I am no different. My church (which I love) encouraged me to vote for a “Godly man” in the presidential election. I (along with many in my congregation) assumed that was a quiet but not-so-subtle endorsement of John McCain. But what was troubling to me is that I don’t have any evidence that tells me that EITHER of these men is a Godly man - and quite a bit to the contrary! Furthermore, we’ve had a president for 8 years who claims to be (and perhaps is) a Godly man, but who (by any standard) has been a disastrous leader. He has done more damage to our country that I ever could have imagined.
The real issue here, in my mind, is the perceived connection between Christianity and politics in general, and between evangelical Christianity and the GOP in particular.
As I re-state my position above, I do not support abortion under any circumstances. However, I also do not believe that legislation of morality has EVER won anyone for Christ. And what, after all, is our commission as Christians? Is it to compel non-believers to to follow God’s law? No, our role is to win as many to Christ as possible - and the government will never, ever help us to do that. Only Christ can do that - often working through us, his children.
I’d like to share an article that Cal Thomas wrote today [http://tinyurl.com/5gvsvk]and that I found instructive - in which he recommends (quite correctly, I believe) that Christians cease reliance on the government to win souls for Christ.
Finally, Rob, I want to thank you on behalf of myself and (apparently) many others who believe firmly in the gospel of Christ but who have no interest in reliance on any government to spread that good news. Thanks for your thoughtfulness, your courage, and your patience.
Well, Mr Obama did it. I guess they’re right - Black people do get the worst jobs…
I am an Australian taking a invested interest in God’s ways of doing things…Yes here in oz we care what’s going on in the U.S because God is omnipresent. What ever effects you effects us and the rest of the world.
So please when you pray for your leaders, have in mind it effects the rest of the world in every way.
Here in Australia we are praying for you all including your leaders, so know that we are all in this together, lets pray as one to our Heavenly Father, through our Lord Jesus…That Presedent B. Obama is ruled by God’s wisdom, Love and Grace and above all the fear and respect of God.
Lets look at all aspects of Gods loving Law.
I have just seen that there is a few different Natasha’s, so I will now put Natasha Q
Just know us here in Australia are praying Gods will for the U.S
we love you…
Just catching up on the lively debate. I only got as far as John’s post and question about where President elect Obama had denounced gay marriage and will have to come back tomorrow to finish reading but I did want to say to John that several days before the election, Obama did an interview on MTV where he expressly stated, “I AM NOT FOR GAY MARRIAGE. ” Please check Youtube or maybe MTV online. It will probably be there.
[W]hat, after all, is our commission as Christians? Is it to compel non-believers to follow God’s law?
Greg M – Those two questions could inspire treatises. With those questions and your answer to the latter, you have ministered to me in ways that I do not yet know. I will truly have to seek the Lord to whether and how he wants me to develop what you have said because, honestly, I never looked at the situation in the way that you just summed it up. Thank you for this contribution. Thank you for returning. And thank you for sharing.
Natasha Q – I am touched to have reached as far away as Australia with this article. I understand I also made it to China, which is profound given that I’m just a guy with a computer sitting in the States. God is truly using the internet to make an impact. Thank you so much for your prayers toward our leaders here in the U.S. We need all the prayer we can get!
Shasto – Thanks for coming back! I’ll have to check for the YouTube link.
Rob, Thanks for a provocative essay. I left the church many years ago because I could no longer stomach the blatant and flagrant hypocrisy of the Christian Right in their base political desires. Your essay has heartened me to the possibility that some sanity remains in the church, as have the positive comments from many of the good people responding to your blog.
From a political perspective, my stance on abortion is more in line with what you write. I believe that our best policy, as a nation, is to work toward a society in which abortion–while still probably an alternative–is no longer a preferred method of dealing with an unwanted pregnancy. I see from some of the statistics quoted above that we seem to be moving in that direction already.
Likewise, I believe that it is not my place to pass judgment on gay people who wish to marry. I have yet to hear a cogent argument against gay marriage, nor do I see how a married gay couple living down the street would endanger my straight marriage. I just don’t see it. I have more important things to do with my life than harass gay people. Indeed, I find some of the apparent glee with which Christians attack gay people to be both repugnant and singularly un-Christian. I know what the Bible says about homosexuality, but my heart tells me that persecuting gays is just as sinful, if not more so.
I am a proud Liberal ex-religionist; however, after reading your essay, I might be open to learning more about churches that are progressive and anti-hate. In other words, I am going to investigate churches that are truly Christian; however, I fear that such bodies are few and far between.
Rob, you are to be commended for a well written and thought-out article. May I offer up an illustration that helps explain a portion of God’s Word?
The Bible teaches us to “love your neighbor as yourself” (Matt. 22:39) as the second command. The greatest command, of course, is to “love God with all our heart, with all our soul, and with all our mind.” Are you familiar with the commercial for a medical aid device that summons help if one has need? it’s the product that has that famous line, “Help I’ve fallen and I can’t get up!”
For a monthly fee this service is available at your fingertips, and an emergency response team will be summoned to your home. Sounds like a great product! But how does it align with Matt. 22:39?
Help from the government is available at our fingertips for those ‘who’ve fallen and can’t get up’…for a fee of course. And we won’t talk about all of the added expenses for the ‘emergency services’ to respond (New Orleans post-Katrina comes to mind).
Government subsidized healthcare, AFDC, food stamps, section-8 housing are readily available for those who’ve ‘fallen’…at taxpayer expense.
Where are the Christians? I don’t care whether you voted for Obama, McCain, Nader or Paul…where are the Christians? Why is it so important for the government to come to the rescue of the poor and needy? Because Christians aren’t.
Why does a “panic button” sell like mad? Because we won’t love our neighbors as ourselves. Yes, that was a deliberate use of the word “won’t”. It’s not that we don’t or can’t…we won’t. Shouldn’t the neighbor in need…the dear lady whose fallen and can’t get up…be able to summon a neighbor to help her? Surely there is a Christian somewhere near her…
Alas, we’re too busy writing on blogs, sending text messages, going to Starbucks, picking out our newest toy, or watching football on our brand-new 60″ LCD flatscreen to talk to our neighbors. If we were, as believers in the Lord Jesus Christ as our personal Savior, living out the second command would it matter which candidate promised to most help those in need? Would it matter whether one wanted to redistribute wealth upward and the other downward?
The Word of God mandates that we love our neighbor as ourselves. When our neighbor has fallen and can’t get up WE, US, THE CHURCH are COMMANDED to go and help! The government is not commanded to help.
When one removes the ’social issues’ that Christians are commanded to steward from the scales of all the candidates, we are left with moral issues to determine our choice. Based on the overwhelming agreement throughout this blog that abortion and gay marriage are wrong (and I concur, for what it’s worth), as Christians we are left with only one candidate…the one who will appoint supreme court justices that support the moral standard given by the true Supreme Court: God our Father.
Are you tired of seeing homeless people, poor people, destitute people, poverty-stricken neighborhoods? Stop blaming the government; stop blaming the Democrats; stop blaming the Republicans…look in the mirror my friend…the blame belongs to us. We, as God’s Church, have failed. We WON’T love our neighbors as ourselves.
I think it’s high time we get off our butts and obey Matthew 22:39. Our neighbors are shouting, “Help I’ve fallen and I can’t get up!” Are you listening?
Rob, Who says Obama is a Christian? The abortion issue is a real issue and not the only one to be worried about. On just this issue: he is undecided whether life starts at conception or birth. This is the information I got from his website explaining his stand on the issues. Most Christians do know that life starts from conception.
Jamie (a dude) - Thanks for commending me on my article. I appreciate that. As for your illustration, I’ve actually addressed it further up the comment stream, as well as your contention on Supreme Court Justices. I respect that you probably did not want to tread through the 200+ comments on this article, so I’ll restate my points in brief.
(1) Christ would not have counseled us to “render unto Caesar” unless He understood that Caesar would render back. Further, and I have not yet argued this, the theocrats of the Bible, most notably David, actually did provide some measure of care for the people over whom they ruled. God did not punish David or speak against him for this. Lastly, I will not be convinced that God honors despots like Kim Jung Il and Saddam Hussein for sitting by idly as their poor wither and die from malnourishment. I’ll also not be convinced that God honored the U.S. for harvesting sweatshops where young children were forced to do backbreaking labor in the name of capitalism. I will further not be convinced that God would have been happy if FDR had let 25% of the U.S. population stay unemployed during the Great Depression or if he’d let rampant deflation and scarcity continue to drive people into starvation. In short, God expects governments to care for their citizens. God does not want governments to sit by idly while people starve and have inadequate healthcare. His commandments to us as individuals do not somehow cease effect when an individual happens to become head of state. So these “social issues” can never be removed from our political equation because governments are called on to speak to social issues in the same way that individual Christians are.
(2) Obama is not “pro-gay marriage”. His platform on gay marriage is actually the same as McCain’s was - he’s against gay marriage and in favor of civil unions.
(3) Republican candidates have already succeeded in giving us the fabled conservative majority on the Court. That Court, in 2006, declined to hear an appeal from the original plaintiff in Roe who was seeking to have Roe overturned. So even the mythical conservative Court that the GOP has promised us all these years will not overturn Roe. It’s time to leave our old arguments and allegiances alone. That’s what my article was all about.
Nan - nowhere has Obama ever said he is undecided on when life starts; not on his website and not in public discourse. What you’re doing is taking a statement and tainting it with your interpretation or the interpretation of those bent on twisting his statements during the election.
Also, I say Obama is a Christian because he professes Christianity. We are not to question whether someone is truthful in their profession of Christ because we are not judges. If someone is untruthful in their profession of Christ, that is between that person and God. We have no part in it. Besides, if you are willing to take George W. Bush and Sarah Palin at their word, you should also be willing to take Obama at his word. If you’re expecting Obama to be a perfect Christian, getting everything right, then you have pretty high expectations for fallen humans, expectations that are impossible not only for Obama to meet, but also for you to meet.
Thank you so much for your interesting article and the compelling discussion following it.
I have only one question to add to this discussion. As a Christian who is a member of an African American congregation, I have become increasingly upset at the idea that our brothers and sisters in predominantly white evangelical churches are basically dismissing us as people who share their faith. The mainstream black churches voted overwhelmingly for Obama, for many of the reasons that Rob has stated so much more eloquently than I could. Are white evangelicals sincerely saying that the majority of the MILLIONS of African Americans in say, the National Baptists Conventions, who profess Christ as our Lord and Savior, and pray for His soon return, are not believers because we disagree about which issues are deal-breakers? If so, how sad for our Church!
WOW! This world gets more and more gray all the time! Listen Bush may have made mistakes, some lives have been lost, about 4,000. What about the unborn lives that have been lost thanks to people like Obama, 4,000 or more a DAY are killed. (Not that God is against war, He tells us there is a time for war, but He is against murder!) As a Bible believing/quoting person myself I have to say that if you want to compare apples to apples, you are very wrong in choosing Barak Obama! It’s true that we cannot judge his heart, only God can, but in Chorintians, Ephisians, Colosians and so many other books we are told to judge the fruit of a persons life. If they claim to be Christian we are to help them back to the straight and narrow. MANY have reached out to Obama to try and bring him back to producing fruits of righteousness, he has refused and is now trying to shut the mouths of those who would try and hold him accountable to the faith he proclaims to have. His standards may be more beneficial to the individuals, but they are a slap in the face to God.
I desire to live a life of peace until keeping my peace is to side with sin! Then my calling is to battle until God’s peace is attained.
Jewels H - WOW! Such an ambivalence toward the loss of (U.S. soldiers’) lives in Iraq. “Bush may have made mistakes, some lives have been lost, about 4,000″. You so dismissively write off the precious lives lost to this war (and fail even to acknowledge the Iraqi civilian deaths) simply because those lives are numerically inferior to the lives lost to abortion. All life is precious. None is to be dismissed simply because of comparatively numerical insignificance. And the fact that God allows for “a time for war” does not mean that Iraq was that time, no matter how many times George Bush tells us so. If our justification for preemptively attacking a sovereign nation was the presence of WMDs and the imminent threat that they’d be sold to Al Qaeda, and then both the WMDs and the connection to Al Qaeda turned out to be nonexistent, I find it hard to see how God - who is all knowing - could have authorized that preemptive attack. So please, don’t fall for the delusion that this war is God’s will and don’t dismiss the lives of our fallen soldiers who were unnecessarily lost to this war.
And as you look to the fruit that a Christian bears, make sure you actually know that Christian and not just the perception that right-wing media wants you to have about that Christian. You claim implicitly that Obama has not borne the fruits of righteousness (yet you produce no proof from personal knowledge that you’ve witnessed this lack of fruit). Then you claim that “MANY have reached out to Obama to try and bring him back to producing the fruits of righteousness.” Can you list even one such person? Can you factually list even one way in which he hasn’t displayed the “fruits of righteousness”? Can you list one way in which you haven’t displayed such fruit? Your only stated “reason” for why Obama hasn’t displayed “fruit” is your unequivocal (yet incorrect) statement that “people like Obama” are killing babies. Yet your claim merely proves that you’ve allowed yourself to believe the GOP misperception that the only way to be pro-life is to be against Roe. If you care to open yourself to a different perspective, I implore you to re-read my article and review some of my comments above regarding how to really promote a culture of life.
As you battle, make sure you’re truly battling for the cause of God and not for the rhetoric of a political party. And if you truly want to make an impact on Obama’s walk on the path to righteousness, pray for him, for he is also your President.
I live in the UK but I watched quite a bit of the election build-up while at home, and to be honest, was always very impressed with Obama in his campaign, thinking that I would vote for him if I was a US citizen!
After the election was over, I picked up vibes from my American Christian friends that his victory was not a good thing for the country - and this kind of confused me. As far as I was aware, Obama had professed being a Christian and that was good enough for me. I have been trying to find out more about why Christians would not ‘want him’ and came across this blog post - which I have to say, is excellent and very well put.
If Obama’s stance on abortion (which as far as I can see is not pro-abortion) is the only issue - then I think some people may be guilty of shortsightedness.
I personally do not think abortion is a positive thing - but neither do I think lying, cheating, adultery, greed, jealousy etc is. Can you pass a law against that?
One of the opening gambits of this blog post was about whether the author should vote two of his values against all the rest. I wholeheartedly agree. In Scotland, we have a saying about not throwing the baby out with the bathwater (maybe you do too?!) - and I wonder if there is a danger of that happening here.
As far as I can see (in my limited political knowledge) George W Bush and the Republicans have not done anything to unite your country - or the rest of the world for that matter - and at last, a beacon of hope for change has come.
If Obama is a phoney - then God will judge him - but in the meantime, I really hope that the nation unites behind him
Rob, I also find your post encouraging and refreshing. I wanted to offer, if I could, some points to strengthen your position which I haven’t yet noticed you invoke.
Your general attitude toward politics and Christianity reflects what is being titled the “emergent church movement.” Whether the title sticks or not, I am unsure. The movement stands primarily, I think, on a pro-Christian movement within the universities emphasizing historical and hermeneutical accuracy in interpreting the gospels, particularly in Jesus’ understanding of the Kingdom of God. Within popular Christianity (almost regardless of denominations, but very strong within more right leaning fundamentalist groups) the meaning to the phrase “Kingdom of God” is absolutely other-worldly, something we experience only after we die. This attitude underlies much of the disregard for social concerns within Christian ranks today, allowing many followers our faith to ignore the endless verses proclaiming total intolerance for social injustice (as well as a completely unqualified and radical declaration of grace). For Jesus, the “life of the age to come” does not mean after death (a Platonic idea). It means the age of the Kingdom of God, which is for Jesus being born all the time. The Kingdom of God could be defined as God’s redeeming or healing presence. It pervades human relations, and drives us to love and justice in all our ways.
Secondly, I have found much contrast being drawn between Christianity and socialism. Now, you are right I believe, Rob, in differentiating our values from bald allegiance to economic doctrines. But if we are to be honest to historical fact, and the tone of the Gospels, it is clear that the attitude of the Kingdom is much closer to some nebulous form of socialism than the unregulated capitalism which has sprung primarily from Calvinist and Puritan routes, as so well analyzed by Max Weber.
Thirdly, I wanted to strengthen the case on the abortion issue. No one who is truly pro-life, as I believe Christians must be, can tolerate state war (Tolstoy for example), capital punishment, or educational or physiological neglect (how about Desmond Tutu, a giant). Further, any honest pro-lifer believes in the mother making the right ethical decision to not have an abortion. Yet, most pro-lifers will advocate some kind of state legislation on the matter, completely undermining the moral autonomy of the mother to make that decision properly. Further, legislation on decisions about a persons body is about as intrusive as any dictatorial communist fascism, and a polar opposite to the libertarian values and conception of rights which pervades our constitution and most Republican philosophy. Finally, the question of when life begins, I believe, is actually irrelevant. The strongest case for grounding the moral dimension of abortion, I believe, is that the fetus is a potential person in a concrete, now all you have to do is feed it, sort of sense; we have an absolute obligation to potential persons. Yet, does this not all lead to a recognition that we have an absolute obligation to both the mother and the child? The fact that pro-choice and pro-lifers neglect this tension leads me to believe that no one in the country truly takes abortion seriously. If we did, we’d be doing more to improve adoption programs for example, rather than whining about legislation.
I am pressed for time, and would like to shore up my post with sources, but for now, if one is looking for the best in biblical and theological scholarship today, I recommend authors such as Hans Kung, Paul Tillich, Jacques Ellul, Marcus Borg, Gary Wills, and Rev Richard McBrien to name only a few.
In comparison to these giants of theology and philosophy, the panderings of the Republican base appears more and more inconsequential to the genuine concerns of the Christian faith.
Peace,
Gabriel
Gabriel - It’s funny, so many commenters have told me that I artciulated a point that they could not articulate. Now I must turn that complement to you. You have lent wonderful support to my arguments and, in the process, further opened my mind on a subject that, thanks to you, I now realize I had only begun to open my mind on.
While I do not agree with every point you make (I feel, for example, that state war is justified even from the Biblical perspective at times, and I justify WWII on those grounds) you have definitely brought a veiwpoint that I broadly support.
I have made note of your recommended readings. Thank you very much for your contribution.
Michael – I thank God that He has used me to minister to you. Remember: do not lose sight of Christ because of Christians. We fall so often. He never falls. Please come back often. You are welcome here.
Antoinette – Your rhetorical question was a good one indeed, and you’ve brought a perspective that I had not before considered. Thank you so much.
Scottishgal – I am honored that you live in the U,K., because that means my little blip in cyberspace has actually “crossed the pond”. Thank you so much for your visit and your comment. We indeed do also have that “baby with the bathwater” saying, so I know exactly where you’re coming from. Thank you so much for your warm wards. And your (not so) limited knowledge is right on the money concerning GWB and the GOP.
Rob,
Yes, I definitely grant your point. The question of Just War is a touchy one; as you properly pointed out, the Kingdom tolerates no form of injustice, even if that evolves into some form of state war, as it certainly did in the second world war (thanks to the Wiemar Constitution). In making that point I should have rather said that war for the advancement of state interests is unjustifiable, the case of the world war being for the sake of stopping the atrocities of the Nazi war machine.
However, once we take this route, the ambiguous motives of every war emerge, even in this case. It is well documented that the Czech territory to the south of Germany was allowed by the proto-Allied powers to be taken by Hitler, though it was never German territory to begin with, let alone the violations of the Versaille Treaty by remilitarization (not to say it was a fair one). These examples of injustice weren’t sufficient to mobilize an already war-torn world. Except for the US, infrastructure intact, our involvement as a nation was not triggered until it had a direct impact on us (Pearl Harbor). Such stories riddle the whole history of human warfare. Every so called humanitarian conflict is tragically laced with state interests, the reason no one in the international community has yet committed to the Darfur genocide, despite French and Japanese laments (even they don’t want to touch it).
This formulation will no doubt carry its own weaknesses, but is closer to my intention. Even Gandhi, in upholding ahimsa (philosophy of nonviolence), the influence for which he attributed to the Bhagavad Gita and to Jesus’ sermon on the mount, allowed for the least amount of violent resistance, as an inevitable result of political objectives, a curious paradox which I acknowledge and offer in support of your point.
My intention is not to quibble over semantic differences; I hope my post is received as one of clarification in light of your justified point. Thank you for your kind words, Rob, and for taking the time to read all of these blogs! Your patience is incredible, no doubt a fruit of the Spirit’s tireless work.
Also, I forgot to note, though many may already be aware, the “potential person” model I offered on abortion is one advocated by Obama, though he neglects to work it out to its full, and no doubt inconvenient, conclusion. This model provides one with the opportunity to challenge the whole format of the current abortion debate, though he always retracts from doing just that, and therefore often appears to be attempting to reconcile two otherwise irreconcilable positions. And if it weren’t for Biden’s occasional stretch of the tongue, the strengths of this position might have been disseminated more thematically during the campaign.
God’s Peace,
Gabriel
Thank-you Rob for articulating many of the thoughts I have also shared about this historic election. After prayer and gathering information, including reading one of Obama’s books, “The Audacity of Hope,” I voted for Obama. I too have considered myself to be a conservative Christian all of my life and a Republican, and but am so disturbed about the hateful rhetoric that’s coming from fellow Christians. Do these Christians who pass judgement on anyone who voted for Obama and calling Obama the “AntiChrist” think this is a good witness for Jesus and who are they to judge his soul? I believe Jesus cares about all of life’s issues, which I heard more from Obama than I did McCain. Now that the election is decided and we are facing the inauguration tomorrow, may we all continue to pray for our new president and all of our leaders and grow in love, not hatred. Blessings to you all.
Thank you. I am not an eloquent person, but I have to say you have summed up what I would say if I could 9and then some). I work in a Christian school and I am the only employee it seems, that did not vote for McCain.
I am terribly disturbed that Christian parents are telling their small children that the end of the world is near and it’s because Obama is our President. I was saddened today when a 2nd grader told me her dad said that they need to get guns to start hunting for food because there won’t be any food now that Obama is in office. What kind of parent would do that to a child? Another 2nd grader said “My mom says that he [Obama] hates babies and he wants to kill them all”. These are children with fragile minds and while today I feel hope for the future, when I hear those comments I feel a bit hopeless for children to be taught to use their own ears and their own hearts and minds. Hate is passed on. Fear and ignorance are handed down like family antiques I guess.
I pity those Americans that are so wrapped up in doomsday dogma that they cannot tap into this feeling of Hope Rising today…hope, at last. I simply feel sorry that some Americans are not celebrating this wonderful event.
I felt so alone at work today until I read this post. Thank you so much for publishing it.
TCH,
I assume you were speaking of Rob’s original blog, but I was encouraged by your post. Thank-you for sharing. I’m getting the impression there’s quite a group of us who voted for Obama and call ourselves Christians. I think I really shook up one of my friends recently when I defended Obama, but I needed to be honest.
What an encouraging inauguration today hemmed in on every side with prayer! ~RG
Dear Sir,
You made a mistake and you know it.
You did not look into President Obamas background. You voted on your feeling’s and not the facts.
You my friend fell prey to having your ears tickled.
Why hate on the republicans, McCain, and Mrs. Palin? It is your fault you voted the way you did.
You only heard what you wanted to hear and believe what you wanted to believe.
You did not look at his background.
Time wil tell about our New President and I beleive he gets a fresh go at it.
Regards,
Jeff Skalla
Dear Sir,
Would you please direct me to where you have obtained you facts on President Obama’s Harvard transcript?
Accomplishments as community organizer.
His accomplishments as Professor,
case work as Lawyer, Ill Senate, and U..S. Senator.
Did I miss something?
Regards,
Jeff Skalla
Rob, thank you!I no longer feel guilty!
I agree with Paula - Thank you Rob, I no longer feel guilty either!
Jeff Skalla (Jan 21) - You point the finger so easily yet you do not back up your claims. If you believe as stated that Rob so blindly voted on his feelings and not the facts please support your claim with the ‘facts’.
Sam
Dear Sam,
Let me say Rob has done a lot of work and has valid points in making his case for his vote for Mr. Obama.
However, I can read his emotions in his work and when your emotions take over we all will make mistakes.
Sam I do no trust politcian’s from either party. You only need to look at our situation today to see the destruction they have participated in.
Rob, said Mrs. Palin often tell’s lie’s. Mr. Obama told a reporter when asked about his relationship with Mr. Rezko “Just an acquaintance”, when Mr. Obama was informed that a mole had in fact seen Mr. Obama walking in and out of Mr. Rezko’s home or office sometimes 3 or 4 times a day he suddenly changed his story. This man is now the President.
How can we know a man we have no relationship with? I am not sure what you think is a go way to find out but I look at what have they done, who have they been assiciated with, and where do they put there money.
Mr. Obama wrote two books about himself, does that strike you odd? He 44 years old.
He was a community organizer for no particular community, with little evidence that his time spent produced much fruit. We do know that Mr. Obama was trained with The Rules For Radicals by Saul Alinsky as the manual for community organizing. Mr. Alinsky dedicated that book to Lucifer the very first radical. Sam there cannot be any good that would arise from a book that had a dedication like that.
We know now Mr. Obama had a very close relationship with Mr. Rezko.
We know Mr. Obama has a very close relationship with Mr. Ayers, Mr. Johnson, Mr. Raines, Father Pfleger,Rev. Wright, Mr. Davis, and Mr. Balojevich.
What do these men have income they have all been closely associated with Mr. Obama and when asked of his friendship with these men Mr. Obama has said he knew them as mere acquaintance.
Mr. Obama knew that Mr. Rezko was under Federal Indictment when he purchased his home with help of Mr. Rezko, a $1,600,000.00 mansion.
Sam, would you do that? Do you think Mr. Obama was driven by selfih greed?
His actions not words, not speeches do not add up, do they?
Mrs. Obama’s salary went from $121,00 to $317,000.00 the year he became Illinois Senator. He is for fairness. Sam do you think for one moment Mr. Obama will give up what he has to make life better for you?
Mr. Obama from 2000 to 2006 gave 1 to 1 1/2% of gross income in charitable contributions, he and Mrs. were making 6 figure incomes.
In 07 6%.
Mr. Obama has hard core abortion advocate period.Look at the facts not his words, they do not match.
Mr. Obama will use the power and influence he has to ruin marriage.
Mr. Obama is a Gay Activist, not Gay but Activist and will do whatever he can to advocate for that group. Look at how he has voted on those issues, he also told them he would advance ther agenda.
Sam, Mrs. Clinton as Secretary of State? Mr. Holder Attorney General?
Mr. Geither Treasury Secretary?
What do they have in common? No sense of right or wrong. What do they have in common with Mr. Obama?
No sense of right and wrong, moral relativism. Please correct if I am wrong.
Sam, they are all going to do eveything to cure all that ills us.
Have you ever had to go to the DMV, Social Security office, Post Office, or dealt with the IRS? Mr. Obama has made it clear he has every intention of the expansion of the Goverment into the public’s life. God help us.
Do you think Mr. Obama will wait to see a Doctor, think the Health care issue to it’s conclusion. Go to Canada and enter there system. Please do not say that will never happen to us, it will.
Finally, I am very capable to handle my own money. I want to give to whomever I chose to give to.
Mr. Obama has never written a payroll check, paid health insurance premium for employess, property Insurance premium for his business, paid a workers comp premium, bought equipment for growth and expansion.
Mr. Obama has lived on the public payroll for most of his adult life.
He is a Politician and clearly one who has palyed the game rather well.
Sam, do you find it at all odd no one has seen his college transcripts? He has no printed papers from his days as a profeesor.
No one has seen any case work he did as an Attorney. DOes this not seem strange.
Do you question at all why numerous organizations that are bent upon the removal of princpals of right and wrong so stronly stand with Mr. Obama? What is awful Mr. Obama embraces there friendships. He knows they will help him advance his political career.
Mr. Obama has forgotten or maybe does not know God is not mocked.
Sam,
I was reading through earlier comments and read the comment by Rob defending Rev. Wright, who is indefensable. Rob states that it was possible Mr. Obama never heard Rev. Wright make those awful comments. Do you think he is kidding? You need to read what that church believes and teaching.
Why do you think Rev. Wright bought a home 10,000 sq. ft.?
Sam, Rob also states the right wing media spun Mr. Obama’s status into worship. Or did the NYT, WP,LAT,CBS.NBC,ABC,MSNBC or Hollywood?
Sam, How about our Presidents first change. What a shame.
Sam and Rob, you cannot make any case for President Obama.
How do you reduce abortions when you provide unlimited funds?
How creepy that you would passionately support a man who would negate am parents right to be notified if the 13 year old was going to an Abortion.
I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT ANYONE WHO CLAIMS A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS CHRIST WOULD HAVE VOTED FOR THIS MAN. Did either of you know for sure that the Holy Spirit was directing, leading you, and telling yes this is your best choice. Did the Holy Spirit ever reveal to you this is just to good to be true, be careful this man is a counterfeit?
It’s not the governments responsibility to speak to a womans heart and tell her to keep her unborn child. That comes from THE PEOPLE. It comes from the churches. It comes from the PARENTS.
Remember this country was founded on religious freedom…..which ALSO means freedom to NOT chose religion. It’s tit-for-tat, but it is what makes this country amazing.